In this first episode of our two-episode mini-series, Julie Kotulek (Central Women’s Ministry Program Coordinator), Christine Hoover (Northwest Women's Associate), and, host, Alison Mezger (Central Women's Ministry Director) sit down to kick off this next year with an honest conversation about joy.
Welcome back to The Women's Cast. That's short for podcast, forecast, our cast of characters, and all the casts in between. This year our Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone is focusing on the theme of JOY.
In this first episode of our two-episode mini-series, Julie Kotulek (Central Women’s Ministry Program Coordinator), Christine Hoover (Northwest Women's Associate), and, host, Alison Mezger (Central Women's Ministry Director) sit down to kick off this next year with an honest conversation about joy.
Stay tuned for Women’s Workshop registration opening on August 7! Registration for our Psalms study is officially open, and many class options are available. Sign up here.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Women's Cast. I'm Allison Mezger. I serve as a Central Women's Ministry director here at the Austin Stone. I'm so genuinely excited to kick this conversation off today. It's won the women's team has been having for a few months, and one I hope will continue for the rest of the year and really be on that this year as a ministry. We're gonna be talking a lot about joy. Here's the deal. The gospel message is simple, and yet it's so rich and multifaceted. We will spend our whole lives trying to understand, believe, and live in light of it. So each year we pick a ministry theme, one aspect of the gospel, or a way of understanding Jesus that helps us focus our discipleship efforts for the season. Last year, we unpacked our strength in Jesus, and this year we'll look at our joy in Jesus.
(00:55):
Nehemiah eight 10 actually says that the joy of the Lord is your strength. Guys, this is such a simple sentence, yet if I can be honest with you, it kind of breaks my brain. So this ongoing topic of joy, it isn't just a ministry theme, it's a personal conversation that I desperately need to have as a Christ follower. I know that I have access to a profound joy in Jesus. I believe that because of who he is and what he's done, I can have joy in all the circumstances of my life and look forward to an eternity characterized by perfect joy in him. I know these things, but sometimes I don't feel joy, or at least I don't think I do. Sometimes joy feels really far off or somehow overshadowed by other emotions, pushed out by circumstances. Sometimes it feels like a command I can't obey or a feeling that's just as unpredictable as all of my other feelings.
(01:52):
Sometimes joy is something that seems so deeply rooted in Jesus, and at other times it feels attached to other things, some of which make me really happy and some of which let me down. I believe in joy and I long for it, but my experience of it is complicated and broken. The reality is a life of joy demands our pursuit, and also our honesty. So that's where we're gonna start. In today's conversation, we're going to be brutally honest about joy, about what we know and don't, about what we actually feel about the questions we have. And in our next conversation, we're gonna start to talk about what it means to pursue joy in light of all we've been honest about and all we see in scripture, guys, I can't wait, and I'm so grateful to not be in this alone. So, speaking of not being alone, I'm so glad to be joined by two others from our women's team today. Welcome back you guys. Julie and Christine, why don't you introduce yourselves?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I'm Julie Tuli, and I serve as the Central Women's Ministry program coordinator.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Julie, what is your favorite summertime treat?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Ooh, right now it's cherries and watermelon.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Alright. Together.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Not together, but just those fruits are just like berry in season. Yes. And they've been so good. And I was on vacation last week and I probably had them every single day as a snack.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah. And then you introduced me to the, what was the new little
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Ride? Oh, dang. And now I just went with what first popped in my head. But Blue Bell's new flavor monster cookie
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Dough. Okay. Yeah. Is
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Also very
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Good. Okay, good. Christine?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Hi, I am Christine Hoover. I am the Northwest Women's Ministry associate.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Do you have a favorite summer treat right now?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
I think watermelon is one of mine too, but iced tea, for some reason, I, I don't drink iced tea a lot, but that, that, but in the summer, iced tea just sounds so good to me. I see
Speaker 1 (03:42):
That. Yeah. Yeah. Like water, but dressed up a little bit .
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You've seen people putting salt on their watermelon.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I have seen people do that since I was little. I don't do that. I've
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Never done it either, but apparently it's good.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Brings out the flavor a bit. Sure. Okay. Well, before we jump into talking about Joy, I don't want to miss an opportunity just to look back for a quick second because we spent a whole year kind of hopefully threading a conversation about our strength in Jesus throughout a lot of the things we did. And I would love to know if there was kind of a personal takeaway for each of you, what stands out as you look back? And just think about that idea of wrestling with what does our strength, where does it actually come from? Mm-hmm. . Julie, you wanna start us off?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Sure. I think the first thing that pops into my head is just that it's not what I think that it is. And that is very helpful in moments when I do need God's strength. To have the awareness of my natural bent in this moment is not, is likely not what I need or where I'm going to find strength. And just having that self-awareness to even ask myself the question, what am I running to for strength? And being able to ask myself the question, is that my greatest source of strength? Mm-hmm. , because it's typically going to be for me to lean into self-sufficiency or control or anything like that. And so to be able to have the language and just to know that it's likely upside down mm-hmm. , it's just very helpful to be able to start in that place. Yeah. And to be able to have that self-awareness just makes things easier.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah. That's good. Mm-hmm. , what about you, Christine?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, I jumped in on this year halfway through. Yeah. So I started in December, and so I haven't gotten to be a part of all the different things, but I would say this year is, has been a transition year. We moved from Virginia to Texas last August, and in middle age doing something completely new, starting a new job, being in a new city with new people after being in another place for a long time where you're comfortable, it brings out all the points of weakness. Mm-hmm. All the points of, I don't know what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. , I, and having been used to being, you know, my husband was the lead of the church we came from. And being in a, in a positional influence like that, to coming in kind of like at the bottom of the ladder and all these things being new, it's really challenged me.
(06:08):
I'm similar to Julie. Like, I am prone to self-sufficiency. Um, and I, I have since set times my pride coming up mm-hmm. or my, um, frustration coming up because I don't know, or I am, I am in a place of weakness. And so it's been really, really good for me Hmm. To realize that, first of all, that's a good thing when I know my weakness, because it reminds me to turn to Jesus that he is my strength, that his power is made perfect in my weakness. So to be in a very tangible, almost forced position to mm-hmm. do that on a daily basis has been really good for me. Yeah. And so it's been fun to be in this theme too, as I've come in and to be reminded of those truths, like through Joshua, that God, he always keeps his promises. Yeah. That, that was especially meaningful to me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
That's good. I think one of the things for me I'll share in thinking about this year was the needed change of perspective from an eye to a we mm-hmm. . And how when I think about strength, it's, it's often I'm thinking about myself and what makes, where does my strength come from mm-hmm. and like how to maximize that. But I think what's so often in just the reality of what our faith means is like that we're part of a people, we're part of a family. And so the end goal isn't ever really about me. There's, there's an us that takes, I think, priority a lot of times. And so when I am weak and something, part of the gift of that is that it actually lets the body be strong because it makes me lean on someone else. So it's, it's a little bit of like, it's, it's what I've needed to hear from the like anti self-sufficiency thing.
(07:51):
Yeah. Which is, it's not that my weakness, that the strength that the Lord will give me in that is directly from him to me necessarily. Mm-hmm. it may come through me needing to lean on other people Yeah. And that, that's where the strength actually comes from. Yeah. That's really good. Um, which has been I think a really, like Yeah. Sweet reminder mm-hmm. Of just how often I think about it in terms of like my lane. Yeah. Um, and he's saying no, it's, it's like a broader picture than that. Yeah. So. That's so good. Yeah. Okay. We're gonna turn a little bit Uhhuh and turn into this next year. Gals listening, I gotta tell you like, we're a little nervous . I think I, I'll speak for myself and then let you guys chime in. But there, there's a weightiness I think that we each feel in kind of starting this conversation.
(08:37):
And so I'll, I'll tell you what our heart is in and how we're gonna go about this. Partly to inform you guys, but partly because I think the three of us all need to hear this mm-hmm. again, which is we're, we're not teaching on joy today. We are having a really honest conversation about some of the wrestling behind it. And there will be opportunities throughout the whole year to really flesh out some of the different aspects of joy in Christ and what the gospel has to say about joy. So there will be aspects of our conversation today and in our followup episode that feel like they aren't finished, that feel not wrapped up because they're not, because we're really just kind of starting this and we wanna be really honest about what we think and believe and feel and experience and, and what pursuit of joy looks like.
(09:23):
Um, but none of us are operating from a place of that being perfect or complete, or us having written some doctoral paper on it. Um, we are literally in this with you guys. So we're just gonna start and we hope that you'll join in kind of with this conversation in your own processing and with a friend, and that you will join with us in ministry opportunities throughout the year to kind of keep the conversation going. 'cause there is so much to be said. There's so much scripture, there are so many resources, but there's, there's so much mystery in it too. Um, and we have to be willing to kind of sit in that and what a better place to do that than with one another. Mm-hmm. . So we're just gonna kind of take the first step in that and invite you to join us. So we'll start off with this question, how do we, how do each of us kind of define or understand joy? But before we get into what we know, the Bible says, right, what we've been taught, what we believe, what we're kind of banking our lives on. I really wanna know just what's the first thing that pops into your head when you think about joy, whether that is serious or silly? What's the first thing that pops into your head?
Speaker 3 (10:26):
I think of plants. Plants. I love plants. . . I'm so just, they gimme so much joy to watch them grow from seeds. I mean, I, my son and I grew from seeds, plants in our backyard, and they're just all blooming and it makes me so happy. Yeah. It gives me so much joy.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay. I love it. And so that plants feel like a good, they're like a symbol to you of something that not just brings you joy, but like, when you think of, we're gonna talk about joy, you're, oh, I'm my little plants .
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I mean, I, is that right? I think just the super naturalness of it, like going from a seed to what it can produce, it amazes me. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels something I didn't do that like Yeah. That's why it reminds me of joy. It's like, it just comes, it just happened and I didn't do that.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Oh, cool. Okay. I love that. That's cool. Julie, what about you?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, a few things came to mind, but I think the one that I am most surprised by is a very specific friend came to mind. Oh. And it's because we've, she's been one of my better friends for 10 years. We've been roommates twice. And she comes to mind because truly to like the essence of her person and to know her and be her friend is to experience joy. Mm. Like, it's just something that just is like very natural to her. Like a fruit of the spirit that just like jumps off the page when you know her. And I think thing that makes me think that even makes her come to mind even more is because in the past couple of years, she has walked a really hard story and that hasn't changed about her, and that breaks my brain. And so I wasn't expecting for like a person to come to mind being asked that question, but like, truly that specific friend is one of the things that comes to mind. Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
You gotta tell her that.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah. I'll send her the episode.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
So I think for me, the truly, the first thing that pops into my head is like a, a, a toddler with balloons, . Like, I'm ser I'm serious. Like, I picture some like cute little curly haired, you know, boy or girl holding like balloons at a birthday party. There's something uhhuh very, like, there's a pureness and innocence and just they're all smiles and, or, or the idea of like, I remember when my kids were little and they were so happy with like a giant box , like if, if, if an appliance came in a box mm-hmm. , and it was like, this was the best thing we could have ever given you, is this box and you're happy in it for days mm-hmm. . And there's just this simplicity of like, this box is making me so happy. Or this balloon that is just, it doesn't do anything.
(13:07):
It's not lighting up with sounds and games and, you know, the complicated kind of things. It's just, yeah. I don't know. Simple, colorful, pure. So I, I picture like a kid with balloons or a kid playing in a big box . That's amazing. So I've got plants, a specific person and like a box, birthday party scene box, or a kid in box, which sounds not great. Yeah. But, okay. So if those are kind of the first just images that pop into your head, let's take that a little bit deeper. And I want you to think about what you see in our world, what you see in our culture, what you kind of just like experience. How do you think the world around us defines joy? Like, what are some of
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Those inputs? I, I wonder does, do you think our culture uses the word joy? Mm. I don't, I don't, I think this is a, one of our still sacred words as believers mm-hmm. , I don't see people in the world using that word. They might, like, what came to mind is, I wanna follow my bliss. Mm. They might use that word.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Do they? Or even happiness
Speaker 3 (14:09):
They Yeah, happiness for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Like, I think the culture use. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah. But do
Speaker 3 (14:12):
We, do we see them?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah. Using
Speaker 3 (14:15):
The word joy? Yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I don't, I hadn't thought about that, but I don't, I would guess not as much as we probably think Uhhuh. . Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Which to me is kind of, I kind of like that because it's still one of our words. It's like, as believers, this is something, it, it kind of points to that. It's something that we specifically have because we have
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Jesus. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I think because what initially popped into my head was just, was the enjoyment of things. Like, I think our culture. Oh, for sure. Mm-hmm. is super familiar with talking about like what makes you happy and you talked about bliss mm-hmm. , but like we, the entertainment industry and, and us being filled with the things that are comfort driven and entertainment driven. I think, I think a lot of what we see the world saying, Hey, this will bring you happiness or joy, even if they're not using that word, is through those things. It's through it's comfort mm-hmm. and entertainment. I think
Speaker 2 (15:13):
It's very like, what do I want? What will make me feel good?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So very like personally defined mm-hmm. preferential. Yeah. Yeah. What do I want in this moment?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah. And very based on how does that thing make me feel?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. How do you think those messages like impact your understanding of joy? Like, do those feel something that you're having to fight against? Do they feel easy to dismiss?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I think kind of like what it makes me think or how it impacts my experience of joy is that my joy is very dependent on X, Y, and Z. Mm. Whatever the thing is that I think will bring me joy, whatever I want in the moment, whatever will bring me comfort. And so I get this perception of joy from the world that it feels like a rollercoaster. Like it's very up and down, not consistent can change on a dime kind of thing. And I think the more that I dig into biblical joy and the joy that we have in Jesus, it's the exact opposite. Yeah. Of something that is very up and down that throws you to and fro and is just very dependent on external circumstances. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Um, and that creates a really tricky tension to sit in and navigate, um, because it is emotional, but it's also not mm-hmm. , so
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah. And we'll get into this more, it is something to pursue, but I think what you're talking about feels more like the kind of a di a directionless chasing mm-hmm. , you know, I mean, I think the world, I think even the language of, you know, follow the, follow your heart. Like that idea at least, I, I think if, if I were to really, when when I do allow myself to do that, my heart is so flippant and I'm all over the place. And so chasing my joy if it's just based on what I think will make me happy in the moment mm-hmm. , I mean, I'm gonna be a yo-yo all over the place. There's no consistency mm-hmm. in that Yeah. Or no stability in that. And so it, even if, even if it's directed, it sounds really comforting, like it's directed by me mm-hmm. , I'm the one who gets to decide that it, it's going to be a rollercoaster. Yeah. Mm-hmm. .
Speaker 2 (17:28):
And I think in my experience both personally and just observing in the world around me is it runs out. Hmm. And it changes like, what brought me joy five years ago, some of the things no longer bring me joy. And so it's this pursuit of this thing that
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Has a on it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I, I think I've been influenced by the choose joy. Mm. I don't know that that's necessarily biblical, and let me explain why. 'cause I do think there's parts of it that are, but I don't think that we can control joy. I don't think we can. Similar to what Julie's saying, choosing joy is, it's up to me. And I can make it be, I can make it happen. And I, I think joy is more of a byproduct.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Hmm.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
We see it in scripture as a fruit of the spirit. It's something that is given to us as a gift. And so we can choose certain things that birth joy mm-hmm. , but I don't think we can choose joy. Mm. I think we can choose to trust that God will bring the joy Yeah. In let's say suffering. When James says rejoice in, in your suffering, I don't think he's saying be happy that you're struggling. Mm-hmm. , but I think he's saying, choose to believe that God will bring joy through at the end as he works these things out in you. Mm-hmm. . So I think sometimes I feel pressure to feel a certain way or choose, choose these things that are gonna make me happy and not really thinking about what is true joy.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's interesting to think about not just the messages that maybe though the world would give us, but even some of the ones that if you've been a believer for a long time or you've been in Christian or church cultures mm-hmm. , we might have, you know, just kind of assumed. And I think for me, one of those ones that I'm wrestling with is Yeah. How does joy coexist with these other things? Right. And so the pressure that you were describing, I feel that, and it feels like, well if I'm, if I'm supposed to choose joy, if, if believers are commanded to rejoice, right. What does that mean when there are times of suffering or when, like, does that just mean like put on a happy face Right. And ignore the other, like, the complexity of like, well what if you're in a season of like, what if there's a reason to lament? Yeah. So how, how do those things coexist? And I don't, I don't feel like we have, uh, I don't feel like we, we talk about the how all that fits together, right. Like we've, we've, we've, part of what I think we're even trying to do in this conversation is demystify joy a little bit mm-hmm. and take away some of the oversimplification of just the choose joy bumper sticker. Like, it's not that simple.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
I think we hear, at least I do, I hear choose joy. And that means to me that if I feel sad Yeah. Or I feel grief mm-hmm. , or I'm going through a really hard season that I have to just be like, well, everything's gonna be okay. Yeah. And I mean, yes, as a believer, I do trust that the Lord has me. Yeah. But I, I sometimes hear that as my emotions have to immediately align with that truth mm-hmm. and sometimes that just
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Isn't Yeah. Mm-hmm. it,
Speaker 3 (20:51):
I don't feel that way.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah. Yeah. It's also, I dunno, hearing YouTube process, I'm like, gosh, is this feels like such an important conversation to have because I think that we can actually wound people without response.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah. In like, when you're sitting across from someone and they're in a place of deep grief or hurt or depression or something like that. And our response is, choose joy. While there is some good wrapped up in that, it can not, it can be actually like, pretty damaging. Yeah. Yeah. So I just think you guys are hitting on some
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I know joy and hope. There's, there's some connections in that mm-hmm. , which I'm sure we'll unpack over the course of, of this year, but even in the command to grieve, but as those with hope mm-hmm. , it doesn't say don't grieve. Yeah. Right. We're not commanded to not grieve. We're command, there's a difference in how we grieve and there's some hope embedded in that. Yeah. But it's, it's similar. Like we're not, it, there's, there's no command to, you know, not ever be mm-hmm. fill in all these other things that seem kind of contradictory joy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
It's like they can
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Coexist. They can coexist, yeah. Somehow mm-hmm. . And I think what's interesting is that as we dig into this and kind of look at some of the things that scripture does tell us about joy, while there is still mystery and there's nuance to all this, it's the, the Bible actually has, like, it has a framework mm-hmm. , right? Like it speaks to this question mm-hmm. , which I find so encouraging because I don't think the world does, like, I don't think the world has an answer to what happens when you are following your bliss where you're trying to choose joy. It doesn't work out. Yeah. I don't think there's, there's not a worldly answer to that other than choose something new next. That's right. And so it makes me really excited to, even though there are some ways that I think we can oversimplify even what the Bible says, like, man, when we really dig into that, it has a much more robust and rich and satisfying mm-hmm. answer. Mm-hmm. like, it, it, it addresses that in a way that I just don't think the world can. And so what a cool oppor, like what an apologetic for the world. Like I need that for me personally mm-hmm. for my own perseverance. Um, and I, and I want that. But also the message that that gives to the world is something that I don't think that outside of the truths of the gospel and how complete they are, I don't think the world can hold a candle to it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Well, and it's really cool 'cause when you start to think about the reality of eternity and how so much of the things that we're so prone to put our joy in and or the world is like prone to put their joy in, it will come to an end. Like what? It falls apart the day that we die. Hmm. And what's crazy is to think about our true source of joy is unending for like, beyond this life. And so it's crazy to think of like, you might be a deeply joyful person because it's rooted in this thing that you are choosing to find in, but literally at some point it will come to an end. Hmm. Yeah. And so, I don't know, that's just been really encouraging for me Yeah. To think about.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Okay. So there's a lot of things that we've, we've touched on just a few of them, of the things that the world, the things that even within Christian culture we feel like are kind of working against a, a working biblical definition of joy. Let's start to unpack what that could look like. And again, ladies listening, like we don't have a prescripted teaching on this yet. We're just, you know, three women sitting in a studio reflecting on what we, what we know and can recall that that scripture has to say about this mm-hmm. . And so we invite you to kind of join in and wrestle with us. But let's start putting together an understanding. I mean, Julie, you started off kind of by saying that, um, there was in, in contrast to kind of the fleeting nature of how the world would define what you can anchor your happiness or your joy in that there's something constant in that for us as believers. So let's start there. Can you kind of just unpack that a little bit more for us?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah. I dunno. I think kind of like where that comes from, and it's newer to me personally and just where I am in my own spiritual walk, is just that I think it's Tim Keller in some article that you had us read that says joy looks more like contentment than this like explosive ex like feeling of happiness or anything like that. Which I think that, I don't think that joy is not those things like plants bring cine joy and that is real. And like that's not, so what I'm saying doesn't dismiss the fact that there are these things that truly do bring us joy. But I think kind of like what, I mean, like words that come to mind when I start to think of like true biblical joy are words like fullness and wholeness and contentment and like things that are sturdy, um, rather than things that are just like really high and then really low when they disappear.
(25:53):
And I kind of think in the processing, processing that I've been doing is, is that can only be found in the character of God and the fact that he himself is joy. Like fruit of the spirit is joy. And so if God in us expresses itself as joy, then God himself must be joy. Mm-hmm. that and then just the beauty of the gospel and the completeness of like what he has done out of the goodness of his character. And that meaning that now he is present with us through all circumstances is just like this solid foundation that can exist through the highs and lows of life. Because it's rooted in who he is and what he has done. Um, and the fact that he is with you in the presence, like his presence, actual presence is one of joy. Yep. And therefore, joy can remain through circumstance because it's not rooted in circumstance. Mm-hmm. . And so that feels very rambly to me because it feels very new and something that I'm freshly wrestling with. But that's just kind of like what comes to mind Yeah. And what I'm personally chewing on. Yeah. So,
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Which I just want to highlight that when you're saying God is joy and, and, uh, Allison read Nehemiah about the joy of the Lord as our strength mm-hmm. just to even stop and think about that our God is a joyful God. Yeah. So many, I mean, I would say for decades growing up I did not have that idea of God. Mm-hmm. . He was more wrathful, more stern and firm. And I had to get it together. And, and the idea that God, it takes joy. He is joy. Mm-hmm. , his demeanor is joy. If we were to see Jesus face to face, it would be, like you said, his presence would be joy. Mm-hmm. , that's our God. Yeah. That, that just really changes things for me mm-hmm. and has changed things for me in my own relationship with the Lord.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah. Yeah. It's just crazy. Specifically think about the fruits of the spirit and joy being one of them. I, for the longest time thought, oh, this is just something that like, you gift me, like you pulled it off of a shelf and you gifted, like you just handed it to me when really we're talking about sanctification and that whole process being like, I am becoming more like God himself. Yes. And making that different distinction of like, I'm not joyful because you just like pluck this off the shelf and handed it to me. It's because the reality of you within me is becoming more and more evident and more and more the thing that's taking precedent over my flesh. Yeah. And so it is literally God himself, not this thing that he pulled off the shelf and was like, you're going to look like this. Yes. It's literally me in you becoming more clear. That is
Speaker 3 (28:39):
So good. Yeah. I'm so important.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
And just to maybe anchor some of this a little bit, 'cause I think both of you guys are really talking around Psalm 1611, which says, in your presence is abundant joy at your right hand or eternal or eternal pleasure. So it's this idea, Julia, you just said, it's like it's actually his presence mm-hmm. where the joy is. Um, and then even the Nehemiah verse, which you know, I mentioned and then you touched on Christine. I, I didn't know for the longest time that that that the phrase the joy of the Lord is your strength. I I really thought it was like you were saying, Julia, the gift, like the joy that the Lord will give me is my strength. Yes. And actually it is, you could als you could restate it as the Lord's joy is your strength. It's the joy that he has in himself mm-hmm.
(29:22):
. That that is actually a strength that we're given. I mean, it gives me chill bumps. I know to think about that and it changes things and I don't, and I, I can't say that I fully understand what that means other than that changes things if our God is a joyful God Yes. That he is described throughout scripture as, you know, anytime we see the word, like when we, we studied, um, the Sermon on the Mount a couple years ago and learning that that really was like the word for happiness and that that is the word that, that God has described as that throughout scripture. And that he is a, he's a happy God. Mm-hmm. , and again, I mean that I love it. It's, it's not what we think about. And I think part of that is because it's so hard to hold the tension between the other things that we know about him, that he is raffle against sin.
(30:09):
Yes. And he is just mm-hmm. , um, but he is able to, to, in a unified way be all of those things, which I think gives me a lot of hope for the, the wrestling that we do as people of how do I maintain this joy and have, and, and represent or be that, um, while at the same time there being seasons of sadness or anger or suffering or whatever, like he is this example of he can actually be a joyful, happy God mm-hmm. , and yet also mm-hmm. exhibit these other attributes of his mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . Um, and we won't do that perfectly, but it means that we don't have to just put a happy face on, um, and we can, we can navigate that all together, which is
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Really cool. And I love that when we see these commands to rejoice that saying, return to the source of your joy. Mm-hmm. So remember, go back and remember mm-hmm. God is joy. Yeah. And that's what will be your strength. And whatever you're facing, rejoice return to the source of your joy.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah. That's good. That's the return to joy. Because I think when I hear the word rejoice without knowing that I just, I just hear be happy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , it feels like a, a burden as opposed to an invitation to return to him. Mm-hmm. , which I love the way you just said that, like, come back to the source of your joy, re rejoice, like mm-hmm. , like come back to the source of joy. Mm-hmm. love
Speaker 3 (31:35):
That. And Paul says that in in the context of, of him saying, you're gonna, he's suffering. Yeah. And he's saying rejoice meaning God is God in your situation. That's what you can rejoice in. And you may not know yet how it's all gonna work out, but you can know in the end, God has it taken care of. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I think another thing that I think of joy, I think of Hebrews 12 where it says, for the joy set before him, Jesus endured the cross. And so when I said earlier, joy is a byproduct, I think joy is a byproduct of obedience. Mm-hmm. that when Jesus and he demonstrates this, he went to the cross in obedience to the Father. And so wanting to please the Father and knowing that the father is joy, he went to the cross knowing that on the other side there would be joy to experience that we would become sons and daughters through his obedience. And I, I think that's a lot of, that's how I think about joy is I can't control it or make it happen. Mm-hmm. , but, but I can obey and there's something that happens supernaturally that God brings joy in that obedience just as it's demonstrated. Mm-hmm. by Jesus on the cross. Mm-hmm. .
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You hit on a really good point. 'cause one thing that about joy in my own personal experience that breaks my brain is that I would say that in the past six months to a year I've experienced more joy than I ever have. And what is wild to that? And that feels like pretty outside of myself and comes on the tail end of a series of years where I would say I experienced the most suffering. And so it is just like both of you, I think have used this word of like mystery. Mm-hmm. kind of like type of thing. I'm pursuing the thing that I'm called to and then trusting that God will provide me with the joy that he promises. It truly is kind of this, like, I don't, I don't know how it exists other than the fact that I, to the best of my ability have tried to follow you and am trusting you to do it for me.
(33:41):
Hmm. So that's, I don't know, it's just very like, and I think that's why you feel kind of like so inadequate to sit here and talk about joy because it's like, it's not something that I can like come up with in myself mm-hmm. and the fact that I experience any of it, I have kind of no idea like, you know, , like Yeah. You know, because when I look at the past couple years in my life, it doesn't make sense mm-hmm. That this is something that I newly am like experiencing welling up within me. Mm-hmm. , like, it just, there is a mystery to it mm-hmm. and I'm like, is truly like not me mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
It's almost one of those things where if you say, and I know next time you're gonna talk about pursuing joy, but it's saying if I'm, I'm gonna try to pursue this, it's almost like air, you know, Ecclesiastes is like trying to grasp the way you can't grab a hold of it mm-hmm. yourself, but it is this thing, this, this God does this supernatural. It is a supernatural thing mm-hmm. that he does as we pursue obedience, as we pursue trust mm-hmm. , you know, it's kind of coming on the tail end of that mm-hmm. mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
. And I think as like, maybe a smaller piece of it too is I've experienced more of it as I've grown in my own vulnerability between me and the Lord to truly seek him in the midst of things that don't feel great. Mm-hmm. rather than like, I don't know, sticking up a hand or just like choosing not to enter in or deflect. But the more that I've grown in my ability to enter in, in the moment into vulnerability with him and come to him and embrace like his presence has fueled to that
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Well presence. Definitely seems to be the, the key in that as you've been more with him. Yeah. And so that's the byproduct. Okay. So we've talked around some of the aspects of how we see joy defined in scripture, and we've already talked a little bit about the world communicates to us about joy. So I'm curious from each of you, when you kind of hold both of those things, what is hard or confusing? Like what questions do you honestly have about joy in your own life?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
a lot. . Oh, I think one is, is it a thought? Is it, is it assenting to truth and therefore it leads to that mm-hmm. , or is it an emotion? Mm-hmm. , that would be a big one for me. Mm-hmm. .
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Mm-hmm. . I think what's hard and confusing about joy is that, uh, you just, I'm like, I kind of, you just can't really put your finger on it. It kind of feels like it. Like, and I think that's because we're living in between these two realities of what the world models joy to be to us, and what the actual joy that we have as believers is, is like, there is this disconnect and so it just feels like it's this thing that I can't really get my hands on, but I'm told to. And so I think just the fact that it's something that can fluctuate in feeling, because if it, if it, is it an emotion? Well, if it is an emotion, then it can fluctuate, but then also it's this constant thing. And so I think it just feels like, it just feels really muddy.
(36:59):
Mm-hmm. like to process anything in this conversation just feels really muddy because it feels like there's such a wide gap between what we think joy is and what it actually is in Jesus. Yeah. Um, and then because it, there is this emotional element and we don't have any control over that, but then it's also a choice. And so it just, like, it just feels really muddy and really complex. Yeah. And like this thing that you've kind of gotta just be comfortable sitting in the complexity of Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. , it's elusive. And so, and that's what feels confusing to me is like, I just want to be able to kind of like pin it down and like have it, and it's not that
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. It also is difficult or I, I struggle with it because to me, other things feel so much more accessible. So anxiety is right there. Mm-hmm. anger is right there. Like, I, that's good. Can I can get that, you know, I can turn that on or it's just, I live with that. Mm-hmm. , you know, I don't live with anger as much. I would say anxiety, more of worry. And so it just feels more tangible and accessible and joy feels further away mm-hmm. . And so how do I move it closer to me mm-hmm. and where I can, I can, um, it's accessible. I can grab it, can I mm-hmm. and I think that I can, and I definitely have experienced times in my life where, uh, so much has crowded out joy, I would say cynicism. Mm-hmm. was, I, I went through a season of deep cynicism and bitterness mm-hmm.
(38:33):
, and of course joy was very far away, if that's what mm-hmm. is right in my face. And, uh, but I also find that it comes closer. Joy comes closer when there's gratitude, when I'm intentional about, um, gratitude or looking around at other people and saying, I'm so thankful for Julie because of this. Or like your friend. Yeah. And, and thinking and dwelling on even Jesus and what he has done for me specifically, there are times where that feels so much more, feels more real and close. And sometimes where it feels far away and wrote and like, yeah, I've heard that a million times, it doesn't really mean something to me. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And so I find that gratitude pulls joy closer and fighting bitterness pushes, you know, it brings joy closer mm-hmm. . So I do think there are certain things that we can cultivate, but I just wonder why it's, at least in my own experience, it's so much less accessible. Yeah. To me.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah. You hit on something that your, that Allison's comment about a child in a box or balloons made me think of, um, because I was like, what is it about a box that brings a child so much joy? And then it made me think about, well, because they haven't, there's so much that they haven't been exposed to that they don't know is out there. Yes. And so the box is like, this is the best thing in the world because I don't know that I could have a massive tree house and a tree in the backyard mm-hmm. like, and I just, it, so it just like some stuff that you just said, Christine and then Allison having it makes me think of how much does like our over exposure to things like probably specifically through social media and getting to see things that we've mm-hmm. , like we have context for things that we've never had before, and how that squashes our joy Yeah. Of the things that are right in that we could be grateful for right in front of us, but because we have so much exposure and we know what is out there, how much that gets in the way mm-hmm. Yeah. Of our joy because we're just so overly exposed to what we could have, like, you know? Yeah. And it's
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Not even that without what is out there on social media in the world, but we, life is so hard. Mm-hmm. people experience such hard things. And so that to me feels also like a disconnect. Like God is saying rejoice, but he knows the reality of the world we live in and what we experience. Yeah. And that, that feels difficult for me too. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah. To reconcile that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's, I think one of the things we'll talk about when we really dig into pursuit is what are all the things that get in the way of joy? Mm-hmm. , and there's, y'all have hit on a couple of them, um, discontent and bitterness and all these things that I, I really like that language, Christina, of like, how do you, what pulls joy in closer mm-hmm. . Um, 'cause that, that's some of the language we've used of like, why does it feel elusive or far off mm-hmm. when at other times it feels like it's right in your lap. Mm-hmm. . And I think one of the questions I have, or at least observations I have is thinking about reflecting on strength. Last year there was so much, um, it was easy to use action oriented language around that.
(41:45):
Like, I know what it looks like when I am striving or when I'm like acting in my own strength. It's, it's, there's a lot of behavior in that, even though it's deeply rooted in what I'm believing and thinking and feeling. And even the year before talking about hope, like that was so deeply connected to what am I actually believing is true about the future. And so there's actions, there's thoughts, I'm just more comfortable in that space than talking about joy, which we can't have that conversation without talking about it through the lens of emotions. Yeah. And so that, I think that's for me, part of why it has that muddiness that you were talking about, Julia, that elusiveness, because I, I don't know how to wrestle as much, um, or experience or even pursue mm-hmm. Something that is highly emotional, even if it's not just that Yeah.
(42:34):
Mm-hmm. , um, that that's very true. That that feels really hard. Yeah. I think one of the other questions I have is, and I, I have the right answer for this, at least I think I do. Like I have a theology that answers it, but in just life experience, I know there's a disconnect between understanding what it looks like to have joy in Christ and to experience joy in the gifts that he's given. And so I think that feels like another aspect of joy where, how is it this ultimately, like Julie, you talking about something that will continue on into eternity, like that is, that is Christ. Mm-hmm. That's the only thing that continues on. Mm-hmm. Um, and so what does it mean to have joy that's so deeply rooted in that as the only thing that is really like the, the pure and eternal sorts of it, and yet also experience joy mm-hmm.
(43:28):
through the gifts that he's given in this life through the common graces and the specific gifts that he gives each one of us through relationships and other things. And so, and those things will change and, and, and are fleeting to some degree mm-hmm. , but I don't think they are necessarily devoid of joy. And so what does it look like to not let that become kind of the, our ultimate source, but also not negate the fact that those things are real mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . Um, and should, you know, and my head says, and should always be pointing me back to him mm-hmm. . So again, like my, my brain knows how to think about it, but I think the, the actual experience of it feels like a pretty slippery slope. Mm-hmm. of where my joy can really get off track mm-hmm. , um, in, in really good things. Yeah. So that feels hard.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah. Well, 'cause I think it takes it's work to experience a gift from God that should trace us back to him and to not just stop at the enjoyment of the thing. Mm-hmm. , like that takes an intentionality that I, I personally don't really want to put the energy towards a lot of the time . Yeah. You know, it's like, oh, this just, I'm in the pure enjoyment of the thing and I don't really want to move out of it because this is so awesome. Mm-hmm. . And so I just think it, it takes an intentionality that is, I don't know, takes energy, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah. It's not as easy or straightforward as we would like
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Mm-hmm. . And the, the gift is often instant and right in front of you and you're experiencing it like at the snap of a finger. Yep. Um, so to trace it back. Yeah. It's just hard.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
All right, friends. Well, I know we have not answered all the questions. In fact, we've probably asked more questions than we've answered, but that was kind of the point today. We just wanna be honest about, uh, what we're excited about in wrestling with this idea of joy in Christ. Um, but also be honest about yeah. The questions that we're asking and the experiences that are very real. And so I hope that this was an encouragement to you. I I hope that you feel a little bit unsettled and excited to dig into what the word says, um, and dig in with people in your life about what pursuing joy, whatever that looks like. We'll unpack that more in the next episode. But what pursuing joy in Christ looks like. So Julie and Christine, thank you for being here and being honest about this topic and all of its messiness.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Thanks for having me. Thanks for having us. Yeah. It's a joy to be here. Oh, oh, Julie,
Speaker 1 (46:00):
You didn't .
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
All right, friends, I definitely hope you'll join us for part two of this conversation. Uh, we're gonna talk specifically about what the pursuit of joy looks like and what gets in the way of that for us. I'll be joined by Persia Gambles from our South congregation and Annette Harrelson from our North Congregation. And I can promise you that it'll be another sweet conversation. Guys, we really do hope this is just the beginning of, um, really studying joy throughout the year. Wanna make sure that you know about a couple of opportunities coming up this fall Women's Workshop with Elizabeth Woodson on September 16th. Registration will open August 1st, and we will be studying the Psalms a survey through the book of Psalms that will start the week of September 24th. And registration for that is already open. So I hope you'll consider joining us for one of those environments. Okay. Last but not least, a fun giveaway. Guys, if you've listened to this episode, and we'll do it to the next one as well, text us your name and email address, and one of you lucky listeners, will at the end of this two episode series on Joy will win a free ticket to Women's Workshop. So send us your name and email address to 5 1 2 8 5 6 5 2 8 3 and you'll be entered to win a ticket to workshop. We really hope to see you there. Okay, stay tuned for the next episode.