On this episode, a group of accountability partners recap their experience with Women’s Retreat 2023: Refuge.
Welcome back to The Women’s Cast. That’s short for podcast, forecast, our cast of characters, and all the casts in between. This year, we’re focusing on the theme of strength as a ministry.
On this episode, a group of accountability partners recap their experience with Women’s Retreat 2023: Refuge. Our host Alison Mezger (Central Women’s Ministry Director) sits down with Julie Kotulek (Central Women’s Ministry Program Coordinator), Alma Vazquez, and Amy Hester (Austin Stone Downtown partners) for a genuine conversation about what it looks like to take refuge in Jesus alongside each other in life-on-life relationships. We hope you enjoy!
During their conversation, Amy mentions going through The Austin Stone Development Program (ASDP) with Alma and Julie. We’re excited to let you know that this program will start again this fall for our North, Northwest, St. John, and West Campuses! Interested? Check out the details here.
Interested in pursuing deeper community at your congregation? Get connected here.
Alison Mezger:
Hi friends, and welcome back to the Women's Cast. I'm your host, Alison Mezger. I serve as essential women's ministry director here at the Austin Stone. I'm so glad you're joining us for this fifth and final episode in our miniseries, the Road to Refuge.
Today, I'm excited to talk to a few friends about their experience at Women's Retreat, but before they introduce themselves, I get to remind you of what this road has looked like. At the end of the day, we hope it's pretty obvious that all we ever really talk about in our ministry and on this podcast is the gospel. We don't ever want to over complicate this most important truth. Jesus came to save sinners. It is beautifully simple. It's also so rich and complex that we'll never tire of looking at it from different angles. We'll never reach the end of understanding how it impacts and shapes every part of our lives.
The idea of Jesus as our refuge has been a way to talk about the gospel this spring. It's a reality that is both grounded in scripture, and because the word is always relevant, it's also deeply relatable. In Psalm 46:1-3, we're told that God is our refuge and strength. He is a very present help and trouble. In our lives, we each feel weak. We know we need help. We know there is plenty of trouble that we need refuge from.
This concept of God as our refuge has afforded us the opportunity to understand a few things. On the last few episodes, we talked about some key threats that get in the way of us taking refuge in Jesus. The spiritual disciplines we're given as a means to fight them. We are tempted to believe lies, so we need the truth of God's word. We are threatened by distraction, so we need to find peace in God's presence through prayer. We're told that hustle is our way of fulfillment, but that always fails us, so we're given Sabbath as a way of living in our true identity as daughters, not workers. We can easily become apathetic towards our sin, which only leads to death, so we seek life through confession and repentance.
Guys, everywhere that we can point to a threat to our seeking refuge in Jesus, we can also point to a grace He's given us to help us keep turning back to Him. These spiritual disciplines are the how we seek refuge in Jesus. But He doesn't just give us these tools. He doesn't just give us a roadmap. He gives us Himself.
That's what we really got to unpack at the retreat. We got to sit and marvel at the reality that Jesus not only provides our refuge, He is our refuge. We looked at different gospel stories that each show us a facet of Christ's character and posture towards us, each revealing a new depth of what His refuge is for us.
Angela Cell walked us through the foundational understanding of the concept of refuge from the Old Testament. Then we saw on Luke 23, Jesus perfectly personify refuge with how He interacted with the two sinners crucified next to Him. Jesus is our refuge from sin. Everything else flows from that.
Emay Yang showed us from the story of the woman who'd been bleeding for 12 years in Mark 5, that Jesus is our refuge from shame. Becca Harris helped to see how Jesus offers something better than finding our refuge in self through looking at the story of the mom of two disciples in Matthew 20. She was seeking greatness for her sons, but Jesus is a better refuge Himself. Than Purshia Gambles helped us armor up to find a refuge from Satan by fighting with the word of God, just like Jesus did when He was tempted in Matthew 4.
We ended our weekend with Kate Terry powerfully reminding us that Jesus is both present with us and purposeful in our suffering, just as He was with Mary and Martha when their brother Lazarus died in Luke 11. All of these are aspects of what our refuge in Jesus looks like. To be sure, there are even more.
All right friends. Well, it's time for you to meet the wonderful ladies that I am seated next to in our little recording studio. Always excited to introduce you to new friends, but especially when they are ones living life together. These are not just individual women from our church that you get to hear from today, but they are women who are living life in community. They're living life pursuing the gospel and faithfulness together. That, I just know, is going to make our conversation that much more sweet. Julie, I'm going to start with you. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah, hi guys. I'm Julie Kotulek. This is probably not the first time that you've heard me on this podcast because I've been on a few before this because I work on the women's team. Women retreat things you'll hear about in this conversation are my work baby, my ministry baby. I've been around for a little bit. Outside of this context, just some things that I'll share is I'm single. I have been in Austin for about three years in total. I'm a dog mom. I really love the color green. Single lady working in ministry, vocationally, and just living life in the city of Austin.
Alison Mezger:
You're a pandemic baby from the standpoint that your life in Austin started right before the pandemic.
Julie Kotulek:
Literally two months, two, three months moved here and the world fell apart.
Alison Mezger:
Yep.
Julie Kotulek:
It's been great.
Alison Mezger:
It's been great.
Julie Kotulek:
It's also about the same time that I met these two who you haven't heard yet who have been such a grace to me in light of that.
Alison Mezger:
So fun.
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
Amy, you're up next.
Amy Hester:
Hey guys, my name's Amy Hester. I have been attending the downtown congregation for about three years now. I recently resigned from a job, so I'm just hanging out at home. I call myself a stay-at-home wife right now. It's a fun title that I've acquired.
Alison Mezger:
There you go.
Amy Hester:
I am a dog mom as well. I have a big old 80 pound mutt that I love. We love Cohen. We love Cohen a lot. She's wild. I love just doing all things outdoors with her. We like going for hikes and runs and hanging out at the river. Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
That's awesome.
Amy Hester:
That's me.
Alison Mezger:
Okay, thanks Amy.
Amy Hester:
Yeah.
Alma:
Hey guys, I'm Alma. I've been attending the Stone for about four years. I've had the pleasure of spending majority of the time with these two ladies. I am a mom. I have a 15 year old who's a freshman in high school. That comes with the amazing friendships of having the daughter, but also some of the challenges. We're navigating through that. I work full-time. I work in behavior health for the state and single, grew up in Butta and still out there, and enjoying watching my daughter enjoy the same type of life that I had growing up.
Alison Mezger:
That's awesome.
Alma:
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek:
AKA, Alma's a boss babe.
Amy Hester:
Yeah, pretty much.
Alison Mezger:
That could be said about all three of you.
Alma:
They're my ultimate high women.
Amy Hester:
That's right, that's right.
Alison Mezger:
Well, tell me a little bit more about... I said it in our intro, that you guys aren't just random individuals we picked to talk about refuge and process, what God's been doing in your life since retreat, but y'all have regular life context. What does that look like? How did that LTG, which stands for Life Transformation Group, how did that accountability group start? What are y'all's current rhythms right now?
Amy Hester:
Yeah, the three of us... Actually, Alma and I were in an MC, a missional community together, starting I think four years ago. Her and I split off with a few other people to do our theology program here at the Stone, the Austin Stone Development Program. That's when we met Julie for the first time. That was three years ago. We formed a missional community and went through ASDP together. We've been doing community for three years together. We've been doing LTG together now for about...
Julie Kotulek:
Since the new...
Amy Hester:
Three or four months.
Julie Kotulek:
Alma and Amy have been in LTG for the past three years. I joined probably about...
Alma:
About three months ago.
Julie Kotulek:
The New Year?
Amy Hester:
Yeah, the New Year.
Alma:
Three months ago. It feels a lot longer than that because we already had so much context, so we were fully didn't have to do any of the...
Amy Hester:
Catching each other up on who we are.
Alma:
This is awkward. Our MC group is pretty honest in our groups. When we break out onto LTG, we just get a little bit deeper. Julie jumped right in. I was... Both of us were like, "Let's bring her in. We're ready to do this".
Alison Mezger:
Well, nobody's got time to do it at a surface level.
Alma:
Yeah, absolutely.
Alison Mezger:
There's no point in that.
Amy Hester:
Amen.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, there's no point in that.
Amy Hester:
I feel like that's my soapbox right now. It's like any relationship for me worth having right now is only the deep ones. I just cherish them a whole lot.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. Well, let's look back in time a little bit. We're going to go back to the weekend of retreat, maybe even a little bit before, but then also spend some time just processing in real time. We're a month out from that and what life has looked like since then. But I would love to know, before you were at the weekend, before all of the context of the retreat, what did you think about the concept of refuge? Neutral? What did it mean to you? Any ideas or thoughts or feelings you brought into that time?
Amy Hester:
I had been reading, just jumping into reading the Psalms from start to finish the New Year. I'm still smack dab in the middle of it, but the Psalms do talk just a ton about the Lord being a refuge for us and being... Really just... I translate that into safe place. For me, that just sounds like where I want to be, is a safe place. Alma and I had rode up to retreat together and we were even talking. She's like, "What does refuge even mean?" I was like, "I think I have a little bit of an idea," but to me it was just an idea. Leading up to a retreat is I could read about it, I could look up a definition, I could know what it means, but I didn't really know what it looked like on the application side of things, or what that meant for me.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. What was your response to that, driving up, Alma?
Alma:
I was kind of in the same boat of it's an idea. I've never experienced it to even think about it. I was curious to see what the weekend was going to look like and what was going to be said about it, but I didn't have a lot of hope in trying to figure out what refuge meant in general, and then let alone refuge in Jesus. Also, I've been walking with Jesus for about four, five years. It's relatively... I have to reconstruct my whole childhood. That comes with its challenges. Jesus has been so patient, patient with it all. Luckily, I've gone to... What I have experienced with that, is with these two ladies, is they're a small glimpse of what He is. That's what. I haven't experienced it, but I'm looking forward to it.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's really sweet. Well, I think it's true for all of us that as we grow in our relationship with Jesus, there is the new understandings of Him, but we're also, we're all in the boat of trying to probably unlearn things about what it means to have a good father and a savior and a safe place. There's the packing our minds and our hearts full of truth and also unpacking the things that in a broken world, we're going to assume and bring to our understanding of the gospel and who Jesus is. Thanks for sharing that.
Julie, what about you, given that you have... They're talking about the car ride out there. You have six months worth of in a workspace context of thinking about refuge. Even over that time period of prepping and writing, what were you bringing into the weekend?
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah, it's interesting because I remember back six, eight months before retreat, when I first heard from you that you were thinking that the theme would be refuge or this idea of refuge for women to retreat. The image that immediately came into my head during that, I don't know, moment or season, was just refuge feels... I immediately picture a war zone. That initially just did not resonate with me of the comfort that I can live in and that honestly, we live in, just living in the city of Austin in a certain... It was lost on me of why would such war zone images be coming to me and how does that translate to real life? The more across the next six, eight months that we flushed things out and I was writing emails and contributing to the podcast that led into women's retreat, the more I did realize we are in a battle all the time against shame, against self, against suffering, all of the things. It's not like battle ground E.
I came into the weekend feeling like I am so excited for women to realize the safe place. That's my favorite language that you used around refuge too, is to describe it as a safe place. I'm so excited for the women of our church to hear how safe they are in Jesus because I am so excited and expectant of what the spirit of God could do in us as a church, as women within our church when we believe that we are truly safe in Him. I came in with a ton of excitement out of having done that work the months ahead and internally starting to do that work. That's where I was at.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I think Amy and Alma, you guys both teed this up a little bit, and then even with Julie's a longer ramp, it sounds like to me that there was a shared experience of, I kind of understand conceptually what this is. Okay, that resonates. There's a need for a safe place. That certainly sounds compelling. We all want that. But maybe the depth of application, what that actually looks like or what it feels to experience that from Him was maybe something still... In the drive up you wouldn't say that had been your experience.
Walk me through the weekend, the things that stood out that started to maybe change that, or prick something, or add some depth to it. That's going to be different for everybody, but I'd love to know what that looked like for you guys.
Alma:
One of the big things that I took away is as I'm trying to reconstruct some of these things that I've grew up on, I've gotten into this routine, because I feel safe. I have my own house and I have my own job. How am I not safe? I start to really get into these deep emotions and start to see this little girl inside of me and let her have a voice. It's kind of funny that I was able to... I spent a lot of time with Amy. Knowing Amy, she's a very stop and smell the roses type of lady, and I am like. I am like, "We got to go. We have a session that starts in five minutes. We got to..." The first thing that we had to do was that walk. You had to think about your valleys. You had to think about your mountaintops. It was really easy for me to fill out the valleys. The mountaintops were a little rough.
As we kept going on the walks, I started noticing more and more women were getting ahead of us and I'm standing to the side, "Amy, are we going? Are we still doing it?" She was processing through everything. Eventually I got to the point where I was like, "Alma, why are we in such a rush? This retreat is for us. We can be here. We can be at the session. We can stay and take as long as we need to on this walk." I think I fully got to embrace the stop and smell the roses with Amy. It felt calm. I didn't have to rush to get to the session that started. It felt really great.
Alison Mezger:
Amy, what was going through your mind? Alma's maybe like dragging you down the path?
Amy Hester:
I'm holding Alma up. Oh my gosh. Thanks for stopping and smelling the roses with me. I think just... Yeah, I think that moment was pretty impactful for me because it felt a bit like taking inventory and asking myself why I even need refuge. Even in talking with Julie leading up to the retreat and just asking about her work and how her day's been going and her sharing her excitement for this retreat and the topic we're going to be speaking about, it's like, "Oh, I need that." But I couldn't put a finger on why I need that.
Friday, doing this prayer walk and taking inventory of my soul with Jesus, with Alma, and it was good for me to just even understand why I need refuge and what I am needing refuge from. That was super helpful.
Julie Kotulek:
Like I did. So much in it for me was identifying, what is my enemy? What do I need protection from? Was so key in it landing at a greater depth.
Amy Hester:
Yeah, I agree.
Alma:
I think her forcing me to slow down to really take that inventory, instead of just doing this to get to the next thing.
Amy Hester:
Yeah, that's good.
Alma:
I really appreciated that.
Alison Mezger:
Good job guys.
Throughout Saturday, we spend a lot of time talking about in our sessions the different ways that Jesus is our refuge, that He doesn't just provide refuge, but He is that refuge for us. He's our refuge from, first and foremost, from sin. That has to be there before anything else can stand. He's also our refuge from shame and from self, from Satan and from suffering. Those are all truths that are real for all of us, but I know for me personally, there are specific seasons where I'm like, "Man, that's what I needed to hear. That was the depth of going to Him that is really where I need to run right now," because maybe it's the part that I wasn't believing as much beforehand. I may not have even realized it.
I'm curious if there is an aspect of Jesus being your refuge that felt like, "Man, that was the one I needed to hear this time. That's where I need to lean in it." It may be one, it may be multiple, it may have been just a general idea, but was there something specific that you felt like seeing Him from those different angles? What really resonated?
Alma:
With my relationship with Jesus, He really had to teach me what His love was first. I felt He really sat in there with me and reframed what actual love was, and then we transitioned into where I'm at now, is learning what trusting Him is. I want to and I'm trying to, and I can see the safety that comes with it. I see it with some of the women that I walk with and how secure they feel. I want to experience that. I know that's Him, but I don't have it.
I mentioned earlier, He's been very patient. He's like, "Okay, you think that you don't trust me, I can work with that." In some of my sins and some of my shame, He's there. He's just calm and quiet and is like, "Or you can believe this." It almost feels unfair if I choose to believe that. He's just walking with me and holding my hand the whole time. In my sin, in my shame, choosing to believe that He's better and that He's safe is the challenge. I have to work with myself to let myself believe that. That's where I fit in with that.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Alma, you said that it feels unfair to believe that, maybe to believe that He's trustworthy. What do you mean by that?
Alma:
It feels like in my sin, I shouldn't be forgiven. I need to be... I need to... It's not okay for me to get off on that. Don't you see what I just did? I feel like that's a lot of some old religion that I grew up on and stuff. But Tyler David said it in a previous sermon. It was hard. It wasn't easy for Him so it could be easy for you, but it's hard to accept. It's getting better now, but in the beginning, He just said, "Or you can believe this." And so trying to continue to accept that.
Alison Mezger:
Man, that's good. Thank you. It's really cool to hear about the connection between... You're trusting Him is a response to the degree to which you feel like He loves you. The deeper that love goes, the more you can respond by trusting Him.
Alma:
Yeah, absolutely.
Alison Mezger:
But He's so patient. Even when you're not trusting, He's like, "Well, instead of reprimanding you for your lack of trust, I'm just going to double down. I'm showing you how much I love you."
Alma:
Absolutely. That feels not...
Alison Mezger:
Crazy?
Alma:
Yeah, absolutely. He does it in my own time with Jesus, and then He does it with my MC, in the community with my MC. I always tell the girls, "Look at God." He just comes and shows new ways to speak to me specifically, and then speak to them specifically. It's just really incredible.
Alison Mezger:
What's it like for y'all to hear her say that?
Amy Hester:
It's just really sweet. It's sweet to get a glimpse of like, "Oh, this is God. This is His love for us." I'm getting a front row seat on how it's playing out in Alma's life. Something we bounce around a lot saying, specifically Alma too though, is there's a better narrative, that I'm not choosing to believe in this moment. I think that's one way the three of us gospel each other in moments, like Alma was just talking about, is just like, "Okay, Jesus is the better narrative. What are we not believing?"
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah. I don't know, it just... I feel a number of things. I feel proud. I just... I don't know. I'm just like that. That's hard work. It's hard to be like, "I'm going to continually lean in." It's a fight. You have to wake up every day, multiple hours a day and be like, "I'm going to choose to lean into my relationship with Jesus," so that I can even be open to all of the things that you just articulated. I'm encouraged because I think one thing, whenever I talk about Alma, is just like, you are honest in a way that is harder for me in following Jesus because I can so easy just be like, "I know what the right thing is and I just have to do it." That can often lead to a separation of where I am... My heart not feeling aligned with where I am. You help me so much be like, "It's okay to ask the hard question, and to be in it, and that God is patient with me in that. I don't have to just pull myself up by the bootstraps," and just be where logically, I know that I should be. It's proud, it's encouragement. It's a number of things.
Alma:
Yeah. Thanks for sharing that because... You've shared that before, and the only reason why I've been able to ask these type of questions is because of the patience of Jesus. Yeah. It's sweet to see it reflected in your friends too though.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, what about you guys? Amy, anything that for you is standing out as it went from concept? What did it look like to go from concept to there being something deeper in how you were experiencing Jesus as refuge?
Amy Hester:
Yeah, I think just talking before about the disconnect. "Oh, that sounds nice, but how do I get there? What do I do?" I think after taking this inventory Friday and then getting to hear who Jesus is and how He's our refuge from these things all day Saturday, something that resonated with me... Well, a few things. I remember Becca had at one point stated, "God's not withholding anything from you. He's not withholding anything good from you because He's already given you Jesus. He's already given you His best." That hit me a ton of bricks because I think I can believe that lie sometimes and fall into that of maybe He is withholding from me. Why is it so hard for me to believe that He's my refuge, and that He's the better refuge than anything that this world has to offer?
But I just keep mulling over that statement right there. I'm like, "Yeah, He's already given me the best." Another thing for me too is when Kate was just talking about Lazarus's death and how Jesus wept with His friends in the midst of total suffering and loss.
I've been sharing with Julie and Alma, just this year has felt so heavy and so hard between just a multitude of things, like health issues between my husband and I that are a total mystery for us right now, heart diagnosis that our families receiving, and just waiting into the unknown in regards to that stuff. But I think just looking to Jesus as my refuge in those things of, here's a clear account of the way Jesus wades into the muddy deep waters with us and weeps with us and sits with us and speaks life and truth over us. He wants to do that for me too, if I'll let Him.
That's where I struggle is I disqualify myself from that. Even just talking through... Gospeling myself and talking myself through. It's not just this hope that we're waiting to receive, that Jesus' return. It's a hope here and now. That's the refuge that I have here and now, if I'll receive it, if I'll believe it.
Even just sitting at a table with Julie and Alma every single week reminds me of that. It's like, "No, I have hope now, not just in the day He returns." Yes, that's the greater hope that we're looking towards, but there's hope here and now, if I'll receive it.
Those few things really hit home for me just in the talks on Saturday that were just such a good reminder, refresher for my soul.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Thanks Amy. Julie, your seat during retreat weekend is very different. You didn't get the luxury of actually getting and hearing all the sessions, but still a month out and you're well versed in this concept and how we've been looking at Jesus through this lens. What stands out to you in terms of just where He has you now with both the love that you need to receive in order to trust to go to Him? I think those are some of the things y'all are all weaving together, is we will seek refuge in Him if we know He loves us. That's what produces the trust to go find that safe place. What's that look like for you?
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah. It's so interesting because I have felt God's kindness in such a way in that I didn't experience a ton of... I maybe heard snippets of some sessions. Across the weekend, there wasn't a ton of my own heart directly linked to the content of refuge necessarily coming into play. I have felt Him be so kind.
In two weeks after Women's retreat, I took a week of vacation. Things kind of just blew up for me, specifically relationally in a couple of pockets, and just felt really hard and complicated in there was some work to do there in that. How that directly linked to me and my relationship with Jesus as a refuge is that clear as day He revealed to me how often I go to self for refuge and how that fails me over and over again. But it is in pride, in shame, in so many reasons I turn to me for safety and protection.
That keeps me from Him, and that keeps me from the people in my life. It's actually damaging to both my relationship with Him and with people in my life. It felt really hard because I didn't... I didn't expect to be so in need. We prayed that as a team. We pray, "God, don't let us get past the weekend without receiving for ourselves as well." Across that week, I remember one, being exposed, feeling exposed to, "I so often go to me," and quickly how I can feel immense shame around the impact that I see that making and Him just being so kind, and me being able to look back at... I just spent three to six months of my life digging into this concept of You as my safe place from shame, from self and all of these things, and just felt Him be so kind to allow me to see it, and then in whatever feeling comes after that, for me to gospel myself, for me to take it to people in my life and have them gospel me.
Yeah, it came at an unexpected moment, but the weekend was so impactful to me as well. I would say even still now. I have work to do ahead that requires me to continually come back to Jesus as my refuge.
Alison Mezger:
Julie, I'm going to put you on the spot because I can. We've all talked about that practice of gospeling yourself through something. Break that down for me and for the women listening. For that in particular, that experience for you, what's the conversation you're having with yourself? What does it look like to gospel yourself to say the true thing that you know is true, but you've realized by the spirit's kindness, or maybe someone else, that you're not believing? What are those words? What's that dialogue like?
Julie Kotulek:
Probably the biggest piece of it is order, me realizing, me seeing clear as day, either from the spirit allowing me to see it, or legitimately being told. In that week specifically, it was receiving from a friend that hurt me. It's like, "I have legitimately wronged you." That immediately can feel shameful.
Coming back to a lot of what Alma said of His love for me and what His life and death on the cross and resurrection means for me. It means that He absorbed all of that. It's me grabbing hold of, I am loved by Him. My sin is paid for, it does not have power over me. He didn't just die for my sin, He also died for my shame. He absorbed my shame. That feeling is real, but it doesn't get the last word. It's acknowledging the thing. It's acknowledging how that sin or shame, whatever makes me feel, and then it's directly applying the love of Jesus and the gospel to that place and fighting like hell to hold onto it and believe it as ultimate, in comparison to the narrative that sin and shame is trying to tell me.
Does that answer your question?
Alison Mezger:
No, it's great.
Julie Kotulek:
Great.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. I think a lot of it is reminding ourselves in that of we have to remember what His posture towards us is. We take on a posture that reflects whatever we think we are receiving from Him. If we think that His posture towards us is pointing that scolding finger, then we're going to respond by retreating, by going to self. But if His posture is moving towards you and His affection is clear and the safety He provides is clear, we're going to respond in an entirely different way. Half the battle is just telling each other, "No, this is how Jesus sees you right now."
Alma:
It's so hard to believe it. It's so hard to... Because that's how the world is too. We talk about this upside down kingdom. That's the upside down ness of it. Upside down ness?
Alison Mezger:
That's good.
Julie Kotulek:
I like to create words. You're in good spirits.
Alison Mezger:
Good company.
Alma:
Great. I'm in a safe place. But yeah, believing He doesn't shake His finger at us. He loves us. And how you are saying, He died on the cross for us for the shame. You don't have to. You don't have to feel that shame. I know it doesn't feel fair.
Julie Kotulek:
I think I'll just add... Sorry, you got my gear sharing because we're in the context of relationship as well, is they're specific to the nature of what I've been processing around self and how that impacts me and Jesus and community, is it's like... I have to resolve that between me and Jesus, but I also have to resolve that between me and whoever. In that I had to receive the gospel, I had to do the gospel work, but then my friend also had to tell me the gospel and vice versa. It is just... Not only does it bring intimacy between you and Jesus to do the gospel work, but it also brings intimacy in your relationships to do the gospel work.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's really good. We started by acknowledging that it might even be difficult at the very beginning of thinking about this idea of refuge to even know why it's necessary. We live pretty comfortable lives. It can be a little bit of a shock to the system to even understand, what is it that I need refuge from? Thinking about the next three to six months of living life together, of being in accountability with one another, what are you hoping that your friends in this circle remember? What are you hoping that they cling to continue to fight against those real threats that are real, but we tend to minimize? Yeah, what are you hoping for each other?
Julie Kotulek:
Just as I look at conversations that we've had in our last couple of LTGs is I think all of us at some point have voiced just like a, "Should I resign?" This would just be easier if this reality wasn't reality. This specific thing would just be easier if I could just leave.
Amy Hester:
The load is so heavy, we just want to set it down.
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah. What I hope in three to six months is that we're continuing... That we're still acknowledging, like we did in two LTGs ago of that's exactly what Satan wants. He wants us to stop. If we stop, he wins. To continue to acknowledge that that is the threat and that is a narrative that he's going to tell us. I hope in six months, we're still fighting back against that together of, "No, resignation is not the answer." This doesn't get the last word. There's so much for us in continuing to run with endurance and to be faithful, and gospeling ourself in it rather than trying to escape. That's what comes to mind for me.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. I love that you use the word resignation. That happens when you feel weak, but then in the whole staying in it, you're like, "Well, I didn't all of a sudden get stronger. I'm still just me, fragile, all the things, but in taking refuge in Him, there's a strength I now have access to."
Julie Kotulek:
In the midst.
Alison Mezger:
In the midst of it in staying, in staying in faith and staying in whatever situation you're called to stay in that without Him, you don't have access to it, but you can endure because you stay in the refuge of Him. Totally cool.
Alma:
Yeah, I almost feel like, I mentioned this before, of wanting to resign because it is really heavy. That is almost the submitting to the fear. The more courageous thing to do would be to stay when it's harder. Finding that refuge in Jesus when it's not immediately. It doesn't come immediately. You have to constantly, like you keep saying, you have to constantly fight and you have to constantly gospel yourself. That gets exhausting. It gets tiring. That's when you have your friends come in and you let them know, "I'm tired," and they pick up the load for you.
Amy Hester:
Yeah, that's right.
Alma:
I've experienced that with y'all. I just think for the next three to six months, for y'all to also call us, that's what we're here for. Whenever it's too heavy for you... Amy and I were just talking about Moses when they had to hold his arms up and it's like, "That's real life."
Amy Hester:
Yeah, that's right.
Alma:
I need y'all I can't do it. I need y'all to hold onto that when I don't have the trust for Jesus. Y'all have the trust for Him, so carry that for me right now, because I'm a little weak.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's good.
Amy Hester:
I think something, as I was literally driving here to record this podcast, I saw a billboard that said, "Keep Austin weird," but the weird was crossed out and it said, independent. I don't know what it's referring to. I have no idea what the billboard's about. My immediate thought was, "I don't want to be independent of God or community." That scares the ish out of me. Just in answering your question, Alison, is my hope for the women sitting in this room is that they never stop depending upon the Lord.
I've been reading through the amplified version of the Bible. It talks about... It expounds on that dependency and talks about leaning on, trusting in, relying upon Him. Just all the verbiage around that reminds me of refuge. It reminds me of a safe place. Just consistently pushing my sisters in Christ to like, "Hey, don't stop depending upon God. Julie, don't fall into the trap of self-protecting, like I'm so guilty of that. Alma, keep believing the better narrative, keep believing that Jesus is the better narrative and that He's trustworthy and He's faithful in every season and area of your life." Just dependency is a word that comes to mind.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's awesome. It is so counterintuitive to say that the thing that I want most for my friends and community is that they would be less independent, that they would be less sufficient, that they would be less able to do it on their own, that that's what I want for myself, even though my flesh freaks out at those words. I don't want that on so many levels. Yet the truth of the gospel is we have to be weak. That's the only weak and broken and dead is the only prerequisite to life in Jesus and refuge. That is the invitation. But to be able to actually see that as something beautiful and not scary is really powerful, but something that we're going to continue to need each other, to remind each other in when our flesh riles up and is like, "No, I'm going to do this on my own." Really cool.
Julie Kotulek:
I think it just feels like an opportunity. I think that we say this over and over again when we've had conversations like this, or that involve community and LTG, and that kind of thing is just, if you don't have this, seek it out. Reach out to leadership at your congregation. Look around your life and have the courage and the bravery to ask. That's really hard, but lean in and ask, "Hey, would you want to navigate life in this way and consistently meet?" I just am like... I think there's a common thread in our conversation. I feel this heavily in my life. Just like our relationship and dynamic together, it is truly a lifeline to me walking with Jesus to have you guys regularly in my life, a place to confess sin and to receive the gospel, and to be reminded of truths when I can't remind myself of those things. It's both in receiving and in giving. It's also just as encouraging to remind your sister of the things that you're potentially doubting as well, but for some reason, it's like you believe it for her, and to just lean in and do that work. If you don't have that, it just feels like an opportunity to just say risk whatever you have to, to get to a place where you have a space like this.
Amy Hester:
Yeah, I would 100% second that. On the front end, opening yourself up in a vulnerable and transparent way, my initial thought is, what will they think of me if they really knew the true me? I can speak from experience after having walked life on life with Alma and Julie for the last three years, and even more deeply so just in the last three or four months with Julie, it has been such a gift to be vulnerable. The things that I thought would be so scary, I have consistently been met with grace and forgiveness and understanding and compassion and, "Hey, let me just again turn your eyes back to Jesus." That's been such a need and such a grace for my life. Yeah, I would just 100% piggyback off what you just said, Julie.
Alma:
I have two things I want to say. One of them is going through being in LTG with... I was in the mist. I say this all of the time because it was so pivotal for me, but I was in the mist of the sin. After I had... I made a big promise to God, "This is what I'm going to do for you." I felt like that was what my relationship with Him was built on. When I lost that and I broke that promise, I was so scared to bring it to them, and I did. I had to because I was lost. The amount of grace that they met me with, that changed the trajectory of my walk with Jesus. If you don't have that in your life and you don't have that happening here on earth to experience a glimpse of Jesus, that's going to put a halt on your walk. Having that with your close friends to experience His grace, to experience His truth, is extremely important.
The other thing I wanted to say, it's kind of a funny story, but I-
Julie Kotulek:
We need some of that right now.
Alma:
... about the Stone. I had went to the Stone years ago and I remember thinking, "This is too much Bible for me. Let me leave." I found another church that I went to every Sunday. It gave you the make you feel good about yourself on Sunday, and then nothing really happened. My walk was pretty non-existent with Him. I remember I started asking questions after a sermon about, God's going to answer all your prayers, or give you all your dreams. Your dreams are going to come true if you follow God. I was like, "Well, what happens if my dreams don't come true?" I was like, "Well, let me go back to that church that had a lot of Bible." So I went. Luckily I did because I started digging into it and I was able to find what actual community was. That's fruitful with your walk. If you don't have that fellowship, then it's just going to stay stagnant.
Alison Mezger:
That's good.
Julie Kotulek:
You bring up a good point. I feel like we've put a lot of emphasis on the community aspect, but I think I should be clear that we're not just... Everything that we're bringing to the table is us fighting for the word of God to be true at the table. We're not just bringing our opinions, or our advice. You bring up, there's too much Bible at this church. It's like, you need a lot of Bible in your LTG. That's good. Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
I love it. Well, y'all have been a really great encouragement, I think both to the provision of community, but also of the reality that that doesn't come without a lot of intentionality and effort and vulnerability and sacrifice, but that it's worth it, and that it doesn't, it can't and shouldn't exist without the gospel and the word of God being central to it. The depth that y'all have talked about holding each other accountable to is not... It's different than just friends grabbing coffee. There's something... Like Jesus truly being at the center of that, of this common refuge you're each trying to stay in and pull each other back into and remind each other of is a really, really good encouragement. Thank you guys for sharing so much about what you're thinking and feeling and processing, but also letting us take a peek into your life of those rhythms and what that actually looks like.
It's come up in a few things that were said today, but Jesus really is better. He is the safest place we could imagine. He is the strongest love we have access to. He is the better story. To go back to an old women's retreat theme, His refuge is the best place we could be. It's just really sweet to be reminded of that, that His strength really is ours, and that our weaknesses are not something to be ashamed of. They're actually something to be acknowledged and really marveled at, because they are what creates the space and our need for Him to be the strong one, for Him to be the one that provides. So it's really an encouragement to hear that representative from you guys and an encouragement to hear how you will continue to help each other fight for that truth.
I think as believers, we can't want anything more. I think you said it, Amy, that there is a hope for the future. There's access to a real hope right now. He is providing. Everything that we will get with Him in the future. There are glimpses of it here and now. Let's be women who seek that, and who seek that for each other and remind each other of the refuge we have in Him, not as a placeholder, but as a foretaste of what is coming when it's not just refuge, but it's paradise too. That's who we get to be for each other right now. Thank you guys for joining us.
Amy Hester:
Thanks for having us. This is sweet.
Alison Mezger:
Friends, thanks for joining us for this look back at Women's Retreat 2023. I hope it was an encouragement to be reminded that Jesus really is our best refuge. I know it was an encouragement to me. Just to let you know of a few things coming your way, we're going to spend a little bit more time this spring wrapping up this idea of studying strength. We'll spend some time processing our two Bible studies. We worked through 2 Corinthians in the fall and Joshua this spring, and so we want to spend some time talking about what God showed us through those studies. This summer, we will get to introduce our theme for next year. We are so excited to start that conversation with you. I hope you'll join us.
That's it, friends. We love you.