This episode of “The Road to Refuge” continues the conversation about taking refuge in Jesus by dispelling lies, distraction, apathy, and hustle through key spiritual disciplines.
Welcome back to The Women's Cast. That's short for podcast, forecast, our cast of characters, and all the casts in between. This year, we're focusing on the theme of strength.
This episode of “The Road to Refuge” continues the conversation about taking refuge in Jesus by dispelling lies, distraction, apathy, and hustle through key spiritual disciplines. Our host Alison Mezger (central Women's Ministry director) sits down with Kate Terry (Downtown Equipping & Women's director) and Leyna Cromarty (central Women’s Ministry resident) for a conversation on fighting apathy by seeking refuge in God through repentance to Him and confession to His people.
Alison Mezger:
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Women's Cast. Once again I'm your host, Alison Mezger. I serve as the Central Women's ministry director here at the Austin Stone, and I'm so glad you're joining us again for this four-part miniseries that we're calling the Road to Refuge. Our theme this year for Women's Retreat is Refuge, and it's our hope that these conversations will help all of us consider and really practically live in light of the refuge we have in Jesus.
I hope you've had a chance to tune into episodes one and two where we discuss fighting lies with the word of God and fighting distraction with prayer. Both of these spiritual disciplines are ways we seek refuge in Jesus and today we're going to tackle another obstacle to finding refuge in Him and another way to fight through it.
Today, we're going to talk about fighting apathy with confession and repentance. You know, everyone's favorite topics, because they're comfortable and easy, but the reality is we've all been there. The place where our sin just doesn't feel like that big of a deal. We can come up with a number of reasons to justify why it's okay, maybe even right or maybe we're just unaware of our sin. Sometimes we just want what we want, and so we think that surely it must be good despite what God's word says. Or maybe we've been wounded, so our actions seem warranted in light of the hurt. Sin against us feels like it justifies sin in us. Or maybe we've convinced ourselves that our sin only impacts us and no one else, or the shame that we feel when we do begin to acknowledge our sin is just too crushing to bear, so we don't.
Apathy towards sin can look a number of ways, but one thing is always true of apathy, it may feel neutral, but it's not. It's always slowly leading us in the opposite direction of wholeness and holiness and has been a part of the human condition since sin entered our reality in Genesis 3. One of the clearest examples that comes to mind is in second Samuel 11. We've got King David and what's he doing right before he makes his arguably greatest plunge into sin with Bathsheba? He's laying in bed in the late afternoon while his men are at battle. He's the king and he was supposed to be with his men, but instead he's lounging around when he catches sight of this beautiful woman bathing, and the rest is history.
Sometimes we fall into sin quickly, but more often than not, we've been slowly drifting from the heart of God and setting ourselves up for a steep downward spiral gradually in slow increments over time. We've become comfortable, justifying, apathetic, and therefore vulnerable in our ability to fight temptation towards sin. But pursuit of Christ's holiness and fight against sin is one that should be laced with intentionality. Hebrews 12:1-2 says, "Let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely and let us run with endurance."
In Hebrews six, we're told that we should show the same earnestness, that we may not be sluggish, but imitators of those through faith and patience, inherit the promises. Our discipleship to Jesus is active, it's intentional. It's always moving towards Christ and holiness. Apathy is not holiness and neutral, apathy is a slow erosion into sin. We all fall short, so what do we do about that?
Well, the good news of the gospel is that Jesus took our sin, our guilt, and our shame upon himself on the cross, so we get a new posture. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we can draw near to the throne of grace with confidence, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in the time of need. That is our posture. So what's our practice? Well, in James 5:16, we're instructed, "Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed."
So guys, for those of us that are in Christ, sin has no ground to stand on because Christ took it and replaced it with his righteousness. In Christ, we actually get to understand that our apathy towards sin isn't freedom, but slavery. In Jesus, there's grace when we return home and there's flourishing in repentance. Guys, this is hard and heavy stuff but it's real and necessary, so I'm glad to be sitting here with two friends.
We're going to talk openly and honestly about what it looks like to truly look at our sin, but do that in community with a posture of grace that we know comes from Jesus and to pursue confession and repentance, not because we've arrived and do this practice perfectly, but because we're desperate for more of Jesus and we get to do that together. I'm joined by Kate Terry and Leyna Cromarty. You guys introduce yourselves.
Kate Terry:
Hey, guys, my name is Kate and I'm on staff at our downtown congregation as the Director of Equipping and Women's [inaudible 00:05:18].
Leyna Cromarty:
Hi, I'm Lena. I am the Central Women's ministry resident and a partner at our downtown congregation.
Kate Terry:
Woo-hoo.
Alison Mezger:
Before we jump into the heavy stuff, I will say this is a pretty fun room right now because Kate has been a part of the ... I was going to say the beginning of podcasts, but...
Kate Terry:
From the beginning of time, [inaudible 00:05:40] the radio.
Alison Mezger:
Definitely the beginning of our podcast, but even more the beginning of pretty much everything we've ever done in women's ministry. Then we've got Leyna, who you guys don't know this, but she's been the behind the scenes gal for all of our most recent podcasts, really since you've been in residency, and this has been a new skill that you've picked up, all the audio editing and all that, and it's been really fun. She's got a big smile on her face right now, guys.
Kate Terry:
She's killing it.
Alison Mezger:
Then we've also got ... she's going to be quiet this episode, but you've heard from her already in this series, but Julie Catuluk, who was kind of the brainchild behind this whole little series. It's fun to think about all the behind the scenes work that's represented in this room, so I'm thankful for you guys. Okay. It's going to get real and it'll probably get real pretty quick, but I'd love each of you to respond just generally, whether it is the request of, "Hey, come sit in a small little room and talk about apathy towards sin and confession/repentance" or what I just shared and kind of what our reality is, but then what our hopeful posture and practice is. What are those first thoughts for you?
Leyna Cromarty:
I think even thinking about apathy makes me want to be a little apathetic.
Alison Mezger:
True.
Leyna Cromarty:
Even specifically thinking about confession/repentance, I think so often I want to believe that because I have the Holy Spirit, I'm just naturally good at it. In sitting down and processing, I realize that the Lord is really kind in helping me to come to Him and repent and then receive forgiveness, but it's actually really hard for me to do that in seasons of I just think the sin won't quit and I'm not trusting that the Lord has the ability to take sin away, or maybe He wants me to battle the sin so that I actually get to learn from it and I can share with others the sin struggles that I've had and how Jesus has been faithful through that.
When I think of apathy, I think of the fact that it seems fine but it's so terrible because ultimately, if I'm apathetic about my sin, then I'm letting it produce death in my life. James 1 talks about sin producing death, so why would we not confess our sin? Why would we be apathetic? Yet, it's so easy.
Kate Terry:
I think that's the part about apathy is how deceptive it is. Alison, you had a line in your intro, you said something along the lines of apathy is a slow corrosion and I think that's such a great ... I love that line. But the imagery even of just something slowly corroding over time and how you look at it in any given moment and you're not going to really see anything wrong with it, but if you walk away, you come back in a year, you're going to see it's rusty and it's decayed and death has set in.
That very scripture, Leyna, was the same one I was thinking about when I heard Alison say that line. It's James 1:14 and 15. It says, "But each person is tempted away when he's drawn away and enticed by his own evil desire. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and then sin is fully grown and it gives birth to death." I've always both been terrified of that scripture and love it because it shows us this cyclical and slow progression of, hey, something might just start off as this underlying desire that you don't even really know is there. You're kind of like, "It's not a big deal because it's not leading me to this acute sin that I can feel and see right now, but it is just under the surface."
But that's where that scripture starts and it says, "Well, desire though, it leads to this and then it leads to this, and then it leads to this, and the outcome is death." It paints this picture for us of, hey, that big, ugly, flashy sin, whatever, just popped in your mind when I said that, that doesn't happen overnight. That happens five years before when you had this little desire that you decided not to deal with, and then it grew and you kind of just let it be there, and it became something a little more and a little more and a little more, and then all of a sudden that big thing happened. It's just deceptive, just like you said.
Alison Mezger:
I mean, I think both of y'all are touching on the pace that temptation and then pursuing temptation or saying yes to it and how that the pace is often slow and these little baby steps. It jumps out to me that I get really frustrated with a slow pace when I'm thinking about my sanctification and so when I think about the opposite of apathy, when I think about wanting to grow in Christ, there's a real sense ... I sense the slowness and that's frustrating to me because I want to grow, and yet I don't have that same perspective of seeing the little baby steps when I think about my sin.
We rightfully encourage each other when we're talking about pursuing Christ-likeness that like, "Hey, this was a grace in your life today. I saw this in you." I can be really hungry for that kind of encourage, and I think that's good and right to see the baby steps of our sanctification, from one degree of glory to another, we're being made to look more like him. I think as believers, we can get really frustrated with how slow that is, and yet I'm not willing at times to see that the opposite is true, that it's those same little incremental steps in the opposite direction that I need to be really paying attention to. Because just like I'm not going to become glorified in one big fell swoop, it's the little things that-
Kate Terry:
You're not going to end up in a pit in just one fell swoop either.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, not likely.
Kate Terry:
It's going to slowly happen. It's interesting though, Alison, because as you say that I'm sitting here thinking in some ways though, are we looking at the wrong measurement here? Because part of what I think about when ... when I thought about apathy and the practice of confession/repentance kind of being what wakes us up from our apathy, I think about it as smelling salts. It brings us to the reality of what's going on. The reality of, "Hey, no, no, no, it's not this small thing actually. This can lead to death. It actually is more severe than you think." But when I say measurement, I'm thinking, "Well, should our focus as believers be on those incremental steps in our holiness?" Yes, of course. It is that, absolutely.
I'm not arguing it's not that, but actually maybe what it should be more is the amount of times we're repenting, how quickly we're coming back to Christ and saying, "I'm needy for you," that that's actually the mark of growth and repentance is more further dependence on Him because we are more aware of our depravity.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's good.
Kate Terry:
It is both, but I felt the need to draw attention to it because I actually think when I focus too much on, "I just need to progress a little bit more in this area, a little bit more in this area," I miss out on actually the real value of repentance, which isn't Him just making me into this perfect thing. He is telling me, yes, he wants to grow me to look more like him, but actually I think the goal in what's actually being produced is more of God in relationship with Him and reminding myself, I'm a daughter, He's the father, I'm made to need him, and a muscles being built in confession/repentance that brings me back to him.
So yes, I hope I'm not the same sinner today or 10 years from now that I am today. Please Lord. But more than that, I hope I know my need for Him more and I love Him more because that's going to produce a humility in me and a worship in me that is far more than any outward looking trade can give me. Right?
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Well, the reality is they're probably much more aligned than we're even making it sound, because what leads to those little incremental steps of growth is actually the practice of confession/repentance.
Kate Terry:
Absolutely. One leads to the other.
Alison Mezger:
Because I don't just in baby steps look more like Jesus every day. It's through taking our in seriously and putting it to death, like you said. I think that that language feels so strong. All the language throughout scripture of we have an enemy who wants to kill, steal, and destroy and the idea that we are instructed to kill the flesh in us, to not feed that, it's very extreme language, and it feels kind of shocking. Again, maybe to this kind of smelling salts, we need to be a little bit shocked out of our apathy sometimes.
Leyna Cromarty:
Just in thinking about what we were saying, Kate, we really have to first see God rightly before we're able to confess and repent. I even think back to when I first came to faith, it wasn't because all my sin was revealed to me all at once, and then I immediately confessed every sin I'd ever committed. That's not what happened. It actually was like, "Oh my gosh-"
Alison Mezger:
Praise God, that would be really overwhelming.
Leyna Cromarty:
It was like, "Oh my gosh. Jesus is the true and deserving Lord of my life." I think so often I want to run to the scriptures to figure out what sin is so that I don't get callous towards it and I don't get apathetic, but really what my first step should be is running to the feet of Jesus and just bowing down in worship and then letting Him change those parts of me and Him reveal to me the sin. That is just so crucial, even daily, to ask, "Lord, how have I sinned so that I can be more near to you?" Not so that I can check the box into looking more like Him, because yes, that will happen with nearness, and so I don't need to check that box.
Kate Terry:
Real practically for you, Leyna, when you think about a time when you've been apathetic and you're trying to practice that, going to Jesus, setting your mind and your thoughts on Him, what does that look like for you?
Leyna Cromarty:
I honestly think that it's looked a lot like friends carrying me through those seasons because I think so often if I'm feeling apathetic, it's really hard, just my stubborn personality, to get me to do literally anything. So just friends asking good questions and instead of telling me what I need to do, letting the spirit prompt me and just fighting for me. Not with me, but for me, and even calling it out, because I think sometimes the sin that I get most apathetic about is probably ... I think of taming the tongue, of sometimes I'm like, "I can just say whatever I want," and that's wrong. You cannot just say whatever you want and that's so helpful, even to reveal how it's hurting others, and firstly, our sin hurts the Lord. I think it really has just been my friends just really caring more about my love for Jesus than how I feel about them.
Kate Terry:
It's really interesting to think about how relationships and community is part of God's grace to us, to wake us up out of that apathy, both through the proactive accountability, the asking questions, the checking in, sure, all of that. But even it is through relationships, it's through other people that we actually see the effects of our sin and it's like, "Oh, I was just kind of just rash because I was operating out of the flesh and I was kind of being self-centered there," and I saw how that landed on my friend sitting across the table and how their face changed and how I've now, "Oh man, that's uglier in my heart than I realized, and I need to ..." and all of a sudden I'm seeing it in a new way, I'm kind of woken up to that, where before I might have been pretty loose, pretty apathetic about maybe my tone or my language or whatever.
This faith is not one that's meant to be really private, really like ... He's calling us into relationships for our sanctification, for our good, because it's actually one of the things that helps reflect back to us and wake us up to some of the realities, probably pull us out of that apathy. I totally agree. Relationships and community, it plays a big, big part in that for sure.
Alison Mezger:
A big part of what y'all are both unpacking is just the interplay of relationships in this. We also have a relationship with the world, and I think right now our culture in particular is telling us a lot about what's right, what's wrong, what we should care about, what we shouldn't. When you think about the messages that you hear, how does that impact what you think about your sin, what you think about the need for confession and repentance?
Kate Terry:
Well, the world's main message in my mind is feel and do whatever you want to do. What makes you happy? It's funny to think about how the world would define apathy because I don't know if they would have a ...
Alison Mezger:
If it would even be negative?
Kate Terry:
Yeah. That's interesting to think about because I think it would be like, "What's wrong with that? If that's what feeling right now, if you don't really care about that thing right now, that's good. That's good for you. If you care about that thing next week, that's good for you too. Be that. That's always fine. You know what? It's okay if other people have a problem with that. That's their problem. You are you and you're happy and you're fine, so go with it." Interesting to think about how the world might understand apathy. I don't think it would have a negative connotation because-
Alison Mezger:
But I think it's so helpful to recognize that because we are swimming upstream here in terms of culture. When we talk about needing to fight for a posture of actually thinking about our thoughts and our actions and our relationships and whether they line up with the heart and character of God and the word of God, and then in a sober minded way taking that to Him and taking that into community to confess and repent, that is not something that our culture's going to say, "Yeah, that sounds like you should do that. Keep doing that. We're going to go against the grain here."
Kate Terry:
I mean, to say that your feeling or your reaction to something is worth examining because there might be something else going on there, it's not what's just on the surface, I might actually be some correcting there, that runs totally counter cultural to the narrative that we're being told, if we're being told whatever that feeling is what's most true about you, actually, so go with that. It's making me think of one of the first thoughts I had when we kind of started talking about apathy was CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters. Anyone who knows me know that it's definitely one of my favorite and most impactful books for me. If you're not familiar with it, I encourage you to pick it up. It's weird. It's a weird book, I'll tell you that, because it's written from the perspective of the enemy of Satan and the reality of spiritual forces that are at play, demons that are at play, that are tempting us, that are leading us to sin. They talk about apathy.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, a lot.
Kate Terry:
They talk about a lot. It's this kind of reoccurring theme and early on it's talking about how essentially the tempter, the demon, is talking about how good it is when humans, when we get lulled to sleep by the things of this world when we're busy, when we're distracted, because that kind of leads to this apathy where we are not thinking about the things of God. Like James 1 said, that apathy leads to other things so the enemy in this book from the perspective is like, "Hey, that's really good. When you can keep them busy, keep them distracted, what that's actually doing, they don't realize it, but it's actually dulling their senses to the things of God." It even addresses it with this tone of, "We need to make sure they stay there. Let's not draw their attention to it too much because we that'll wake them up out of it."
That's going right in line with what you're saying about what's this cultural narrative that's kind of happening right now in this world is our culture loves just staying in this kind of comfortable, "Let's not get too high, let's not to get too low, let's not call each other. That's too extreme. That's too intense. Just be comfortable. You be you, I'll be me." We don't like to put each other ... culture's saying for you to put somebody on their heels and to call something out, like you were saying, Leyna, why would you ever do that? That's not your place. That's exactly what Screwtape Letters is getting at, is that it's part of the enemy's tactic to say, "Hey, just keep them comfortable. Don't wake them up to either extreme because they are right where we want them when they're kind of just lulled to sleep by the things of this world."
Man, when I really sit and think about that, it concerns me because what that communicates to me is there's probably ways right now I'm a little bit asleep. I'm a little bit distracted and not even really realizing what it's giving away to beneath the surface. It's a good examination question even now for me of, "Okay, what have I gotten lazy on on giving attention to?" That's why confession/repentance, that's why community is so helpful is because, and Alison, you're aware of this phrase, I say it all the time, but I have always thought about confession/repentance of just rip off the bandaid. That phrase is helpful for me because it's the sensation of it's going to hurt, it's going to be something you don't want to do, but it's going to be quick, but it's going to be better afterwards. Just get through it. That's the opposite of what the world wants us to do, but confession/repentance leads us to something better on the other side, leads us to more of God, leads us to more holiness, leads us to more community, but it might be hard to get there.
Alison Mezger:
It's going to be uncomfortable.
Kate Terry:
It's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be uncomfortable.
Alison Mezger:
We're intentionally talking about confession or repentance together, but I think we all know that there are some differences in those. I'd love us to unpack what those are and how those kind of need to play out differently in our lives.
Leyna Cromarty:
It's actually funny that you asked this question because my LTG just actually had this whole conversation of can we repent to one another? No, we cannot. We have to repent to the Lord, and He is the only one that is able to receive our repentance and forgive us, and then to other people, that's when we actually confess. You have the difference between vertical repentance to God and then horizontal confession to community, but both are necessary. I think of James 5 where it says, "And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.'
It says, "Therefore confess," you must do that to one another and so you can't have one without the other, but it's so easy to do. I know for me personally, it is much easier for me to just go to the Lord, be like, "Here's my sin, love you," and then never tell anyone ever, because I'm like, "Done. It's done." I really need to meditate on that verse of confess to one another and it's so hard because what if they judge me? I know God, He loves me, and He already paid for all my sins on the cross, but my friends didn't die on the cross for me. I'm like, "Ooh, that could be really messy and my sin could be so disgusting to in friendships," which is a lie from the enemy because ultimately if they're in Christ, then they also have received that forgiveness and so therefore they're coming from the place of I have been forgiven and therefore I forgive much too because I could never forgive you as much as God has forgiven me.
Kate Terry:
Man, it's fun for me to hear you process that out, Leyna, because I was listening, thinking, "Man, that's so true, and also I bet there's women listening who are on the opposite side of the coin from what you're sharing." I think I feel both in my life, probably in a different season and relationships or whatever, I'm going to maybe find myself running to one over the other, confession or repentance. I think both sides are going to resonate with a lot of women listening. On the opposite end of what you talked about, it might be really comfortable for ... and I've seen this in my life for sure. I'm somebody who tends to like to go deep quickly and I would say that vulnerability is a marker of my friendships and is a space that I like to ... for me to feel really safe and known, I need to verbally process and share some of those deeper, harder things and I want to know that about the other friend sitting across from me.
It can be really easy to live in that space in a friendship of vulnerability and a confession to one another and sharing these deep things and then to walk away from that time and be like, "Great, I feel better now because I talked it out and they spoke some gospel back to me and helped me believe true things or maybe corrected me a little," all that and be like, "Great, I feel good," and move on with my day and realize the end of the day I'm like, "Why do I feel empty still?" That cup from another human can only keep me going for so long and that's because we're designed ultimately to truly be ... who do we need to be realigned with? It's not that friend, it's God Himself.
Alison started by talking about the example of David and Bathsheba and I think David gives us the best example of this in Psalm 51, and I loved the title of the CSB, the Psalm is actually a prayer for restoration, which I think is really beautiful and he's modeling for us here repentance to God. This is a prayer to God. I hope that ... well, we know that he did have conversations with Nathan and others, but this is showing repentance to God. In verse four it says, "Against You, You alone, I have sinned and done this evil in your sight. You were right when you passed sentence, you are blameless when you judge," and he is acknowledging God's authority that I have sinned against You and so You actually have every right to cast judgment and because You're God, You're king and I'm created and I've sinned against God himself."
So we see this statement of I've sinned against You alone and I think that's really important for us to have to examine when we're thinking about confession/repentance, because I know for me, I can get into that maybe more in my natural state, feel more comfortable to confess to friends. Actually, Leyna, I loved like you saying, "I go to God, I know He loves me." Man, one, sister. That's beautiful. Truly that is a gift of the Holy Spirit. I think that's a grace that God has given you for you able to say that so clearly. Because if I really sit in those words, I'm like ... I don't know. I think I really struggle to know and believe that He loves me, which is why I avoid going to Him and actually why I find myself chasing after these moments with other tangible humans that can give me some feedback loop and make me feel a little bit better because I can feel that in that moment and it is harder for me to go to Him and be there broken, busted up, in need and really receive His love.
This isn't the Kate Terry show, so we won't get into all my background and family wounding and childhood history and all that, the reasons why I am the way that I am. But I'm willing to bet there's women listening who are finding themselves in both places that are like, "It's easy for me to accept God's love. It is super intimidating and fearful to sit in a room of my friends and actually be honest and vulnerable." I think there's a good press from scripture like you're saying, Leyna, on why we need both. Then I think there's women that are maybe feeling a little bit more like me that are like, "I can do that conversation all day long, but it's hard for me to really be vulnerable with God and honest with Him and safe with Him." I think it's good for us to press on both sides of that because we're getting more of God and we're becoming more of who he wants us to be, but we need both confession and repentance.
Alison Mezger:
What a great kind of diagnostic question for each of us to ask ourselves, but then also ask friends, roommate, spouses, LTG partners of, "Okay, which is harder for you? When you just think about that thing that's bugging you from yesterday, is it harder to talk to God about it or is it harder to talk to me about it and actually process that and take that to the Lord and ask for His courage, ask to be reminded of His love either directly from Him or if you need to be reminded that you're safe and secure, even if the people that you're afraid of don't respond in the way that you want?", I think that is a really helpful kind of posture we could all take to be honest about which of these things is hard.
Kate Terry:
Yeah, and to practice doing it. I'm thinking about, Alison and I are in LTG with another staff member and just here recently we started a new rhythm of instead of just getting together, and for those of you listening, if you're like, "what's LTG?" it's just another Austin Stone acronym that we love, but it stands for Life Transformation Group and it's essentially where we practice confession and repentance. It's these same gender groups, normally people who are in your community where you're going a little bit deeper and you're helping each other really practice obedience to God and foster love of God through confession/repentance. So it's this time we get together weekly where we share these things with each other, but instead of starting by just each of us kind of going around and being like, "Y'all, here's where I'm at, here's my list the week of the ways that I was disobedient or I've just been wrestling and struggling," we are now starting by praying and telling those things to God first.
Leyna Cromarty:
That's good.
Kate Terry:
Man, I mean, to what we were just talking about Leyna, and even maybe how you and I are wired differently right now, that's been so good for my heart to soften it to, "Yes, that's right. This is all about relationship with you, God, it's all about me believing and remembering that You love me, that You see me in the midst of the struggle and that Your forgiveness is for me," and it helps me to talk to Him about that. Then we talk to each other about it from there, but that practice has been helpful for us.
Alison Mezger:
I think when I think about that, it reminds me of how powerful it is. It's not that the spirit can't cultivate that kind of honesty just in conversation, but I do think there's something special about what it does in my heart to turn to Him in prayer and that being a posture that's a little more open of invitation of the spirit's help. I find myself praying things in those initial moments and I'm like, "I'm not sure I would've just said that, but I prayed it." Because there's something about that posture that it's more of an open invitation for His help, and I need that. So I have felt that it is not only the right order of things, of intentionally taking the ... he's the one that we're sinning against and so it's asking for restoration of that relationship first. But I think it also does a lot to bring down the barriers, even just between people, to have more honest conversations after that, because you've done some of that work with Him first.
Kate Terry:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's good.
Alison Mezger:
I think one of the very clear themes in what we're talking about is that we are talking about relationships, Kate, and what you shared from Psalm 51, we're talking about our relationship with God, and we're also talking about how our sin impacts other people. We're talking about the relationships with other people and man, when I reframe it that way, when I think about my sin in light of the fact that it is going against relationships, that makes it a lot harder for me to be apathetic because it's not just this thing. It's not just this thought or behavior or something in the quiet, something that may or may not get seen. It is something that is damaging relationships that when I'm sober-minded about it, I'm like, "I don't want to be separated from God. I do not want to be at a distance or to hurt people that I love." But that's not often the way I think about my sin. My sin is just this comfortable thing I want to keep and protect because my flesh likes it.
Kate Terry:
Or it's accolades
Alison Mezger:
That's right.
Kate Terry:
It's like this is what it means to be this shiny poster board christian. This is what we've learned that it needs to look like. When we do that, we take relationship out of it entirely.
Alison Mezger:
Because the need's gone.
Kate Terry:
We've made it about image, we've made it about approval of man, and that's what's ... I mean, when you really start digging into this and you're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So in my obedience, I can still be deceived?" Yes. If you're being motivated for the praise of man and approval of others or for your own comfort, then absolutely. That's what's so tricky about this and why we need community and God's word to reveal what's true to us.
Alison Mezger:
Let's get real practical and talk about the rhythms in your life, the things that you have put in place that help foster a posture and practice of confession and repentance.
Leyna Cromarty:
For me, I meet weekly with my LTG and I also have a husband and so both those sets of community, it's like I literally cannot escape from at least once a week meeting with people that I know will ask me those specific questions. The weekly rhythm is actually new. We were only meeting every other week and we were realizing with three people, that was just not enough consistency. So we really had to fight for how are we going to make more time to give ourselves the space to confess to one another. I feel like when I think of what does confession and repentance look like in my life, it looks like fighting for it both in my daily walk and asking the Lord literally every day, "Search me, oh God, know my thoughts." I need that prayer every day so that He can actually show me my sin.
And will He show me? Oh my gosh, He is faithful to answer those prayers. I feel like that weekly check-in having someone that lives with me, one of my LTG partners actually does live with me, so I have the roommate and husband, they see my life and I think that is another really important thing is even outside of my LTG, just having people that I'm actually doing life with so that when I hurt their feelings, they come to me and I can repent of that to the Lord and seek their forgiveness of that as well. So oust multiple layers of life on life and good friends that are really also fighting for confession and repentance and community.
Kate Terry:
That's so good, Leyna. I think the only things I'd add is something we've started recently is, Alison and I have started, is at the end of that time communicating, "Hey, what's something you can do this week?" Alison was using the language earlier of baby steps, baby steps towards holiness, towards obedience, and so I think if you take that too far, it can start to become pretty legalistic and you're making a list, but that's not our heart in it at all. It's just, "Hey, what's one little step of faithfulness that each of us could take that you're feeling the Spirit's asking you to do this week that then next week we're going to ask about?" I think that's the part. It's just such a small thing, but I don't think this is limited to church culture. I think our whole culture's probably bad at it, is just follow up.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's right.
Kate Terry:
Is actually hearing your friends say something that they want to grow in or something they'd like to stop doing and then you never bring it up again. That happens to all of us.
Alison Mezger:
A lot of accountability groups.
Kate Terry:
I'm guilty of that. We say a lot of stuff and then we never ask each other. That's so silly. We're doing half the work and never carrying it to completion.
Alison Mezger:
There's very little accountability actually happening sometimes.
Kate Terry:
So spend that time being honest and confessing and or bending and going to Christ, but then talk really practically. "Hey, what's something you need to start doing or stop doing this week to help you pursue more holiness and ultimately worship of God that's going to help you in that very specific area?" We just say one thing or two things. We put in a note on our phone and then we bring it up the next week.
Leyna Cromarty:
We do that too. We love a shared note.
Kate Terry:
Love a good shared note. Those are things I'd say.
Alison Mezger:
I'll add that I think one thing that I have not done consistently, but, man, I can tell when I'm in a season of doing this is actually spending some time by myself actually preparing for that LTG accountability time. It is drastically different if I have thought through ... it's just forced reflection that I'm not naturally inclined to do and it will happen to some degree just by virtue of LTG time. But man, if I can spend a little bit of time in prayer and thinking about the last week reflecting on that note before I get into that room, my heart is going to be much more inclined to authenticity, to confession or repentance, to whatever the spirit is doing in me directly and through these friends. But I have to do some work ahead of time for that, and it's worth it.
Kate Terry:
Yeah, that's good.
Alison Mezger:
So what about the gal listening who right now doesn't have that kind of community, doesn't have an LTG? What do you say to her?
Kate Terry:
One, gosh, if you're in that place, sometimes I don't want to project how you feel necessarily, but you might be feeling lonely and discouraged and a little down even listening to this. I just want to say I'm sorry that that's where you are and I'm sympathetic to that, been in that season before, and I want you to know that this is not how it's always going to be. I think we all have seasons of change in relationships and community where it's just us and God, or it feels that way, and I want to be clear that all the things we've said about confession/repentance, you can be faithful to grow in your obedience to God and relationship with Him and affections for Him with just you and His word and all these practices like community and prayer and the spiritual disciplines that have been discussed on all these episodes, they're all so helpful and community plays a big part in that.
But the Holy Spirit of God is in you, and he has the power to ... I mean, John 17 talks about how He is the gift of truth. He has the ability to reveal to us what's true and what's untrue, and His word is alive and active. I'm truly thinking about ... what's coming to mind right now is the Afghanistan woman. What is true for her? If she doesn't know another believer anywhere within thousands of miles, what is true for her and what is true for her is that spirit of God is alive and real and has the ability to produce sanctification and love and worship. I want you to know if you're in that place where you just don't feel like you have that community, I'm thinking you most likely have access to God's word and so I want to tell you, get in His word and practice these things we've talked about prayer and these kind of things.
Start there, but then some practical steps. If you're attending the Austin Stone right now, if you're attending another local church, guys, this is the reason why we make announcement after announcement about getting connected with community because of all the things you've heard on this episode so far is that God has made us for relationships. The step to get to having these type of confession/repentance relationships in your life, it might be a slow road of building some trust, of building some vulnerability, and that's all going to start with you taking maybe that first scary step of going to a connect class of emailing that staff member and being like, "I need to be put in a group. Help me out. I'm alone."
The first step might just be asking for help and I cannot communicate to you enough, as a staff member, please reach out to us. This is why we're here. We are here to help you all. This is the very thing we want to help you with. So please reach out. Let that be maybe a baby step to take. Maybe you're a person who find yourself in a community and you just don't know how to start it, be the first one to ask, y'all. It takes somebody going first and I bet money there are other women in that group who would say, "Yeah, I need that too. You know what? To get together weekly and to take it seriously, to ask each other about our obedience to God's word and our love for Him, I need that. Let's do it."
If you need help knowing what that looks like, again, reach out. We would love to help you with that, but go first in making that ask, ask your group if there's anybody else that would want to do that, but know that that vulnerability, that trust, it's going to take time to develop. So be patient and be intentional to cultivate that relationship. Man, just the last thing I'm going to say, I'm sorry I could rant on this forever, because confession/repentance and community have been the most effective tool in my life to help me love Jesus more. That's the reason why I'm talking about it the way that I am, but more big picture guys is for everybody, whether you're in an LTG or not, what if we had a culture at our church where we're in the lobby after a service and we see somebody we don't know, and instead of avoiding them, we go up to them and ask them their name, and we get to know them, and we're talking to them about, "Is this your first time at the Austin Stone?"
We create a culture of hospitality where we're actually stepping into one another's comfort zones and when you get asked the question, "Hey, how are you doing this week? How can I pray for you?" It's not just the, "I'm doing fine, I'm good, work's good," whatever. Maybe you take a risk and you go a step deeper and you say, "You know what? I'm having a hard time believing this about God right now. Would you pray for me in that?" Guys, that is a step towards us becoming a family of God like the scriptures are talking about. It's a step of experiencing first John 1 of walking in the light. We experience fellowship with one another and we experience fellowship with God. So yes, these relationships of LTG and community and all that, they're so great, but more than that, y'all, as a body of Christ, we can experience this together with people that you don't even know their name.
You can experience a connection and an encouragement and sanctification in that moment because they're a brother or sister in Christ that you can be honest with. So what would it look like if we all started to take steps towards that direction? Man, I think we'd start to change our city because the Austin Stone would start to be known as this place of like, "Man, when you go there, when you step in that lobby, you feel known. You feel seen. There's something different." We are different. We are different, guys. God has called us to be set apart. It's burning in my heart a little bit right now for me too, guys. I'm saying all this, and I'm like, "Me too. When I'm having a hard day, I just want to be isolated and I don't want to talk to anybody." But man, there's so much for us to experience in the family of God if we push past that a little bit, we stop trying to put up a different image, we start living more authentically and honest about our need for Christ because we all need Him.
Alison Mezger:
Well, we'll never normalize confession or repentance if we don't just normalize honesty first.
Kate Terry:
Yeah, that's exactly right. And our need.
Alison Mezger:
I love that you said, "Hey, it doesn't have to be the full LTG kind of conversation in the lobby, but the reality of I'm struggling with this, would you pray for me?" Then in that moment, guys, when we talked about this on the prayer episode, instead of just taking a note and saying, "Yes, I'll pray for you. Stop right there and actually spend 30 seconds and pray together." Can you imagine, just like you're saying, Kate, if we started seeing those little conversations popping up in the lobby on Sundays, how sweet that would be and probably what it would foster.
Kate Terry:
I mean, what you're talking about, Alison, on even what does it look like for you to receive what someone's saying, that's worth maybe taking a minute to talk about is when you're on the receiving end of confession or repentance, what are some things you should be thinking about? What does it look like to respond in that moment? Leyna, what does that look like for you? Do you have any advice for things to consider in that moment?
Leyna Cromarty:
Yeah, for sure. I think empathy comes to mind. I think when we put ourselves in the person that is like ... if you're listening, you've probably confessed at some point and you've felt all the feelings, the shame, the guilt, the fear, the anxiety, sadness, probably all of them, maybe sometimes all at once, and so when we put ourselves in that situation, I feel like that helps us just have such a more loving posture and then I really would love to just beat this drum forever, but the number one thing every single person that is confessing needs to hear is the gospel. They need to be reminded that their sin was hung on the cross and it didn't stay there, but that Jesus willingly took it, willingly died, and he didn't just stay dead, but he defeated sin and death and was resurrected so that you can walk in the newness of the life that he gave you.
I've just found so much power in shoving all judgment aside and just speaking the gospel. It sounds like a little Jesus [inaudible 00:49:21] or a bandaid that you just slap on there, but it's not. When someone is sharing something, that is the number one thing they need to be reminded of, is that they are so loved by the king of the universe. I think that just brings us back to humility. Philippians 2 has been so on my heart and I think that's even a great passage to meditate on, especially verse one through 11. In that it talks about to have the posture of Jesus and what was Jesus's posture? It was to take on our flesh. He came as a little baby and was the perfect person and sacrifice for us and so we need to do nothing out of selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others as more significant than ourselves.
That is how our posture should be when someone's confessing is if we were in their situation, whatever they're confessing, we probably would've done that or even worse. For us to think that we are ever better than anyone confessing is such a lie from the enemy and it's just not helpful for us, it's not helpful for them, and so I feel like humility, empathy, and the good old gospel.
Kate Terry:
That's right. That's Good.
Alison Mezger:
Leyna, I love that you said it can sound like we're kind of putting that a gospel bandaid on it, but you're really not. You're doing the important work of reminding someone what is true. I know in my life it's been especially helpful to not only have that reminder but then be proactively asked, "What is it right now about the gospel you're having a hard time believing?" So that extra step of, "Okay, remind me of what's true, but the reality is either attached to the sin that I'm confessing or just in my posture of how hard it is to confess and to repent, being prompted to consider, "Okay, as I listen to you, remind me of the gospel, remind me of the forgiveness I have in Him of the grace and mercy I have in him. Is there an aspect ..." and it's not that there always is, but, "Is there an aspect of that that I'm really struggling to believe right now?"
Even then getting an opportunity to confess that is kind of a next step and then being able to receive the Gracie mercy for that lack of belief on top of just the ... this is a little bit of the root fruit things that we've talked about with gospel fluency, that I'm not just confessing or I want to not just confess the sin in its most kind of outward obvious way, but underneath that, what is going on in my heart about what I believe about the character of God in that moment, about what he says about me, about what he's saying about the gospel? Because all of my sin on some level, the gospel is broken down in my mind. I'm not trusting and a part of it, right? I'm not trusting and a part of God's character and so that kind of follow-up question I know for me is really helpful.
Kate Terry:
I think this is clear, but just to nail it down, all of this, y'all, is happening in a tone of love and empathy and care. They might not be able to hear the gospel as the first thing out of your mouth back to them. Maybe what they need is a listening empathetic ... maybe they need a hug. Then I think you should do a lot of question asking before you say anything and through that some of these things Alison is talking about are going to rise to the surface and then you're going to be able to speak some gospel truths in a really patient and tender way. But just know when someone's confessing, they're inviting you in to a really raw, vulnerable thing most likely and your words and your response are important. I mean, I think that Philippians 2 model is the best thing we can look to.
Alison Mezger:
But I think what you're getting at is makes the gospel be able to be applied very specifically is taking that time to sit and ask those questions so that it's not just a restatement of the gospel, but it's in particular offering that person that piece of it that is the part they're having a hard time holding onto.
Kate Terry:
You can't know without being really slow and asking a lot of questions. Guys, I say that because that's often ... I fault in that area. I want to skip to the end. I want to short circuit the process of the gospel, and I want to get to the answer. I want to speed up that thing. I want to fix it and that's making it about me, not about them. It's not allowing the spirit to do what he wants to do in that moment. So slowing it down, asking questions and letting the spirit reveal where the need is is going to be the best way to let Him lead you. Just step in the stream of where He's leading.
Alison Mezger:
Well and honestly, circling back to even where we began, I think sitting on the receiving end of someone confessing and repenting and needing to be reminded of grace and the gospel, what that does in my heart and the recipient's heart as far as fighting apathy of my own sin, having to articulate the gospel to someone else, seeing their vulnerability, seeing their approach back to Jesus is a grace to me in fighting apathy, in fighting sin. Vulnerability begets vulnerability and confession/repentance, it encourages that in the other person as well. It's a grace on both sides of it that is really, really sweet. Hard to do, and messy and uncomfortable, but really sweet.
Leyna Cromarty:
Yeah, that's good.
Alison Mezger:
Well, Kate, Leyna, thank you so much for wading into these waters with us. I know it was an encouragement to me and continue to pray for the women listening. Again, like we've said before, that this would not only be an encouragement towards Jesus and what Jesus has for you, but also that there might be steps even towards community because that's such a big part of practicing this, really of practicing all the spiritual disciplines we've talked about. Ultimately, what we're getting at is in and of itself, there's no power in saying the things that we're saying and even just saying a confession or repenting using those kinds of words. The power is in Jesus. The power is in the refuge that He provides us and in us taking steps towards Him because He's standing there with open arms, so thank you guys.
Kate Terry:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
Yay. We've got one more episode. We'll be back with you guys talking about the struggle against hustle and our need for Sabbath, which will be a really great conversation. Want to encourage you while registration for retreat is still open to go ahead and sign up and we will look forward to talking about all the specific ways that Jesus really is our refuge. We love you guys.