This episode of “The Road to Refuge” continues the conversation about taking refuge in Jesus by dispelling lies, distraction, apathy, and hustle through key spiritual disciplines.
Welcome back to The Women's Cast. That's short for podcast, forecast, our cast of characters, and all the casts in between. This year, we're focusing on the theme of strength.
This episode of “The Road to Refuge” continues the conversation about taking refuge in Jesus by dispelling lies, distraction, apathy, and hustle through key spiritual disciplines. Our host Alison Mezger (central Women's Ministry director) sits down with Julie Kotulek (central Women’s Ministry program coordinator) and Christine Hoover (Northwest Women’s Ministry associate) for a helpful and much needed conversation about seeking intimacy with and taking refuge in God through prayer amidst the distractions of the world.
Recommended Resources
Teach Us To Pray, Bridgetown Church
Prayer: Talking with God, Rule of Life: Practicing the Way
A Praying Life, by Paul Miller
Prayer, by Timothy Keller
Alison Mezger:
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Women's Cast. I'm your host, Alison Mezger. I serve as the Central Women's Ministry Director here at the Austin Stone, and I'm so glad you're joining us again for this four episode mini-series that we're calling The Road to Refuge. Our theme for this year's women's retreat is Refuge, and it's our hope that these conversations will help all of us consider and really practically live in light of the refuge we have in Jesus. Our refuge isn't just provided by Jesus, it's actually in him, but we face a lot of threats to seeking refuge in him. In episode one, we talked about lies and how we have to seek refuge in Jesus by being in his word, in order to access truth to combat the lies that the world tells us and the ones we tell ourselves. This week we're going to talk about distraction, which spoiler alert, is really a conversation about the spiritual discipline of prayer.
So how are these two things distraction prayer related? Well, because our refuge isn't a place, it's a person, our faith is in the context of a relationship, and healthy relationships require honesty and proximity. You put those together and that means they require intimacy. Intimacy allows us to express our joy and sorrow, request help, ask for needs to be met and simply enjoy the presence of another. The list goes on and on. But one of the greatest threats to intimacy is distraction, because if you can't be honest and present, you can't be intimate. If you're not paying attention, if you're not present, intimacy won't happen. Consider the couple that goes out to dinner only to sit across the table from each other scrolling on their phones, or the good friends that can't find time to truly catch up one-on-one because work overflows into their schedules. Healthy relationships require our attention in order to foster intimacy, and we have to fight a lot of distraction to have that in any relationship, especially our relationship with Jesus, which we can not only be distracted from, but there are real spiritual forces desiring to keep us from him.
So the constant distraction and temptation to tune into other places means that we have to be incredibly intentional about seeking the person of Christ and quieting our souls before him. We have to get alone with him regularly through the spiritual discipline of prayer. A couple of things to consider before we jump in to discuss. First, Jesus himself sought the Father in prayer. It's mentioned in every gospel, multiple times. Mark 1:35 says, "In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went away to a secluded place and was praying there." And then Jesus teaches his disciples to pray.
He says, "When you pray, say this." And then beyond the gospels, we see many commands, encouragements, and instructions in prayer. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 says, "Rejoice always, pray without ceasing." Paul urges us in 1 Timothy to give supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving on behalf of all people. And then in Mark 11:24, we're told, "Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours." Okay, so enough of me just talking. Let me introduce you to the best part of the conversation. I'm sitting here with two friends and co-laborers in ministry, Julie Kotulek and Christine Hoover. Guys, welcome to the podcast.
Julie Kotulek:
Hey.
Christine Hoover:
I'm glad to be here.
Alison Mezger:
All right, Julie, tell everybody about yourself a little bit.
Julie Kotulek:
I am Julie Kotulek. I serve as our Central Women's Program Coordinator. I've been on Staff for three years this week.
Alison Mezger:
That's right.
Julie Kotulek:
Did you realize that?
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek:
So that's pretty fun. I'm single. I live in the Mueller area. I tend downtown. I'm a dog mom. I currently have some of my favorite things, more than one revolve around fire.
Alison Mezger:
That's great.
Julie Kotulek:
I got a pizza oven for my 30th birthday and a solo stove, and it's made me do a lot of processing around. I think fire facilitates community in a really beautiful way.
Christine Hoover:
I agree with you.
Julie Kotulek:
And so I'm here for it, and I will preach about it all day.
Christine Hoover:
I totally agree with you. Well, I'm Christine. I'm at Northwest. I've been on Staff for two weeks, as of this recording. Yeah, so my husband and I just moved here to Austin in August. He is the new Executive Pastor at Northwest, so we're serving on Staff together.
Alison Mezger:
For the first time.
Christine Hoover:
For the first time. Stay tuned. We have three boys who are 19, 17 and almost 15. And I like fire too, I guess.
Alison Mezger:
You should pull over and hang around my solo stuff.
Christine Hoover:
We got a solo stove. Someone gave us one last year.
Julie Kotulek:
Oh, that's a nice gift.
Christine Hoover:
It's amazing because you can sit around and there's no smoke that comes out.
Julie Kotulek:
No smoke. No, no, no. It's awesome.
Christine Hoover:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
Well, thank you guys for being here, especially Christine, I know it's your second week, but in some ways because of some different team rhythms, it's like your second day here, so.
Christine Hoover:
Exactly
Julie Kotulek:
We're just diving right in.
Christine Hoover:
I'm getting to know everyone as we're sitting around podcast recording.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's right, and we're going to jump into some real things. In some ways, no better way to get to know people than to talk about real things.
Christine Hoover:
Yeah, exactly.
Alison Mezger:
We could spend a lot of time just doing the hallway chit chat stuff, but this is where it gets real, so we're happy to do that with you. Okay. Before we jump into questions, just want to make it abundantly clear that the reason I asked Christine and Julie to join into this conversation isn't because they both spent three hours in prayer this morning.
Julie Kotulek:
I did not.
Christine Hoover:
[inaudible 00:05:50].
Alison Mezger:
No, great. I want to make sure I'm telling the truth. We are all three of us here discussing distraction and prayer because we are desperately distracted and prayer is hard and sweet and necessary for all of us. We haven't arrived, and so yeah, we're going to sit around and share the tips and tricks and the victories and the sweetness, and we're also going to talk about the realities of where and how this is hard and where we struggle in it, because we are fighting for faith with the women listening, but also with each other. So that's the context of any advice you hear or anything else that's shared, is that we are in this process of pursuing Jesus through prayer with you guys. So let's jump in. You heard the introduction. You heard me talk a little bit about the need for prayer in order to fight distraction. Think about just that barrier at baseline. When you think about being distracted, how does that sit with you? Does that resonate? Does that feel real?
Julie Kotulek:
It feels very real, to almost a painful amount.
Christine Hoover:
Definitely, distraction is the hindrance specifically to prayer. It's not necessarily the hindrance for me with Bible study or the Sabbath or things like that, but it's specifically prayer, so I love that we're combining that because I find with prayer, the distraction for me is my mental to-do list and intrusive thoughts. And so immediately, I'm going down a different path than sitting with Jesus. I'm now thinking about what I need to take care of for my kids or what I need to get at the grocery store. I mean stuff that doesn't matter necessarily sometimes, but my mind is off, and so it takes away from that intimate relationship with Jesus and just being with him. I'm no longer with him. I'm somewhere else.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, you're somewhere else. Why do you think that connection exists? Why is it prayer as opposed to doing something else where we're sitting with him where distraction feels so powerful?
Christine Hoover:
I think the hard part about prayer is you're communing with someone you can't see, and so if I'm sitting face to face with you, the distraction is not ... There's not a hindrance to that, but because I can't see him and I'm talking to him, that's where I can easily go off somewhere else and forget that I'm interacting with the God of the universe. So I think a big one for me, I remember during COVID especially, my husband kept saying to our church, "Prayer or Bible reading before phone," because if I pick up my phone, I'm off somewhere else. But I think I forget sometimes I'm interacting with God and not just spewing my thoughts, and so it's easy for me in some ways to walk away from Him in a way I wouldn't walk away from you if I'm sitting-
Alison Mezger:
If we're sitting across the table from each other.
Christine Hoover:
Yeah, I think that's the hard part.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Is that how you experience it, Julie?
Julie Kotulek:
I think the thing that ... Mine's slightly different and I think that definitely resonates, but something that leaped out to me when I was listening to you talk is how it's both proximity and presence because I think they're linked, but I think that I can often trick myself into feeling like I'm praying, like I'm standing right next to God, but I'm really processing, and so I'm distracted by my own.I'm withholding myself emotionally and I'm thinking about whatever I should be praying about, and so it made me think of the couple at the dinner table. I'm right next to you, but I'm not putting my heart on the table or I'm not really showing up to this moment and I'm leaning to my own logic or whatever to work through this rather than choosing to enter into a relationship and vulnerability with God in this moment.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's good. I think part of what I'm hearing from you is there's a difference between thinking and praying, and I know for me that can feel very muddled. I will have thought about something so much and even thought about it under the umbrella of I started the thinking with, "God, help me with this," but then it's more of just me thinking about it as opposed to, I think the opposite of that might look like me really seeking Him in it or turning things over to Him in it or asking to hear from Him in it. That's very different than just my mental wheels processing something, even if I am saying them out loud or writing them down in a journal.
But there does seem to be a nuanced difference between just thinking and praying, and it has to come down to my heart posture in that. Am I actually thinking these things in order to make sense of something, or am I thinking these things in order to bring them to my God and savior and friend, who I believe is actively listening and wants to engage with me on those things?
Julie Kotulek:
I think it requires both. We have to think about-
Alison Mezger:
Of course, right.
Julie Kotulek:
But I so often in fear of vulnerability ... I think it opens the door to a lot of relational stuff. If this is ultimately about relationship between me and God, then my resistance to truly lean in in that way, often reveals like, "Oh, am I struggling to trust you with this? Am I afraid you're not going to answer?" It reveals a lot of things.
Christine Hoover:
Are you also saying, Julie, that you struggle to engage the emotional part of the relationship? You're able to think about it and say, "Factually, here's what's happening, Lord," but you struggle to engage your emotions and say, "Maybe I feel sad about this, or I feel uncertain, or I feel angry"?
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah, that's definitely been something that I have had to grow in because I think especially the first couple years of being a Christian, prayer was very like a place to perform, especially in front of other people or in trying to for the first time, how do I pray? And being given Matthew six, when Jesus legitimately gives us the example of here's how you pray, and me being a rule follower and feeling very like, "Oh, I have all these sub-task." And so to walk the bridge from this is something that I'm called to do, but this is also relational and there's a way to do it, but it's also relational, has just been a journey, so.
Christine Hoover:
I can totally relate with that. It's hard because you feel like you know what you should believe about God and you know it can become formulaic, you know how Jesus teaches us to pray, but it can become, like you said, the performance of ... And so we fear being honest with God in prayer because we know what we should believe about this or we know what the endgame is, that we want to be able to trust Him so we want to leap over the truth of how we feel and what we really need to talk about with Him, to get to, "Okay, I trust you, I'm going to trust you with this." But we haven't even really been specific. I'm saying we, I'm saying this is what I do. I haven't even really been specific with Him about how I feel. I can tell Him what's going on. I can tell Him what I want Him to do, but to really get to the feeling, I think has been the key for me in it being a relational thing rather than a transactional or robotic thing.
Julie Kotulek:
I completely agree, and it's exactly what I'm saying. I think I have a very vivid memory of the first time of being at a place in my life and just being like, I've got no other choice than to just tell you how I feel and feeling some fear of, are you going to leave? Prayer has become easier and more desirable, and I can push through this distraction, the more that I have grown, and He's big enough for whatever I'm about to express to you.
Christine Hoover:
Yes. I think that's why the Psalms are so important, because they give us words. If you really read them and study them, some of the Psalmists say some really hard things. I just was reading, I don't remember exactly which Psalm it was, but he's praying, "Vindicate me, God." Do I feel comfortable saying that to God? The Psalmist gives me permission to say some really painful, hard things. So I think that's why the Psalms are so important for us. I mean, just giving us vocabulary for prayer that's at an emotional level.
Alison Mezger:
And a super helpful tool, like you were saying, that if you don't yet have the words, that we can talk about the practice of learning how to pray scripture, which is there's a lot of different facets. We can talk about how we pursue Jesus in prayer, but one of them is actually praying the word back to him, and that's not just some practice so that you know you're saying the right thing and he's getting to hear it. He is glorified when we say true things about him, but beyond that, it's actually giving us language for things that we may not have language for yet, because the Psalms, just like you said, are full of lament. They're full of worship, they're full of questioning, they're full of declaring true things about God, and in the same breath, asking for the faith to believe those things.
So yeah, an incredible resource for all of us. One of the things, I think the main thing we've touched on right now is the role of distraction to our prayer lives. I think it's also important to hit a little bit that part of the reason prayer is so important is that it actually helps us fight the distraction more generally just to our faith. So when I say that, I mean that there is a lot that if I'm not paying attention to or in tune with the Spirit, in tune with God about what He's doing in my life, even with circumstances, that if I'm not doing that in prayer, I will be distracted by whatever reality I'm seeing play out in front of me. So it's somewhat similar to our conversation last week about truth and lies. So there are things in this world that will distract me from what it means to follow Jesus with faith and joy and in obedience.
And if I'm not connected to the spirit in prayer, not only does a distraction end prayer, it's actually a distraction from living an abundant life in Jesus, because I'm not connected very John 15. I'm not connected to the vine, and that's how we do that. So we can talk about distraction both as it relates to the obstacle to prayer, but also the broader obstacle to our faith that we are trying to combat through prayer. When you think about the distractions of the world, what does that make you think as far as how prayer fits into that?
Christine Hoover:
Well, I think we could go to the obvious things like our phones and all of that, but I think for Christians, it's often things that we don't think about. And so what is the instinctual response when I, let's say feel a need or I feel ... For example, last night I panicked about one of my kids and I felt this overwhelming just flood of, "Oh no, am I failing him? What do I do?" And I sat in that for a moment until I realized I can take this to God. Sometimes it takes me a while to go, "I don't have to figure it out myself. I can take this to God. He is my refuge, my safe. He is safe for these concerns." And not only is He safe, but there's things about His character that I know that scripture tells me, that He is powerful and that He can act in this situation.
And so I can call upon the one who can act. So I think the distraction is our instinctual natural responses that we don't even think about. For me, it's control. I can figure this out. If I just remain calm, come up with a plan, act that plan, then everything will be okay. That's not turning to refuge, that's turning to myself. So I think everybody has their own little ruts that we get into where we just don't even think about it. That's mine, at least. I don't know, Julie, what yours would be.
Julie Kotulek:
I think, or just one that is easy. I resonate with everything that you just said, especially the control. And I think that links back to how I started. My first answer is it's like, "How can I figure this out?" But I think one that I see in myself and in other people and just culturally is the turn to other people. Because I think in moments like that, maybe we're desiring to turn inward to ourself, but I think because we're relational, we want to turn to someone outside of ourself, and we're so easily like, "I'm going to text this friend, or I'm going to call this friend." And that is a good thing, but I do think that people can get in the way of us going to God in prayer, because like you said, a person is visible and it's easier and you get a response and it just feels easier and more comfortable and less complicated.
Alison Mezger:
It's always painful when this happens, but in light of what you just said, Julie, it's a gift when we are let down to some degree by the people that we live life with, because it reminds us that we can't expect things of them that should only be expected of God. So as hard as that is, it's often a really ... It's a grace to be reminded that first and foremost, we need Him. First and foremost, we have to be present and intimate with Him because there are things that He can and will do in us that just can't be replaced by even the best. I mean, the relationships that are the best in each of our lives are just shadows of what it is to be intimate and in community with Him.
Christine Hoover:
So I think, we talked about the couple at the table. I think that's a great example. Let's say we're going on our 20th wedding anniversary date, we're going to be thinking about specific things that go in intentionally. Let's talk about the past and the good things. Let's talk about the hard things. How has God been faithful? I think the same is true for us with our prayer life, is we have to be somewhat intentional with that. So let's say with my example of with my son, I know now what my natural instinct is, and sometimes it takes a moment before it clicks in my mind, "You're doing it again, Christine." And so being intentional about what am I going to do when something comes up and I feel that panic or I feel discouraged, or I feel whatever, what am I going to do? I want to be intentional to turn to God and to look. I keep a list of God's attributes in my Bible that I can go to, and what is true about Him?
What specific attribute can I call upon him right now in this worry or this concern that I have? But it's just choosing ahead of time, what am I going to do when I face that kind of crossroads decision?
Alison Mezger:
That's a really great picture of bringing your whole self into the spiritual discipline in the sense of the discipline of prayer is something that we're called to as believers, but there are going to be some ways that each of us need to be encouraged or challenged in how we pursue that because of our stories, our context, how we're wired and what's going on in our lives, and even the type of accountability you might need from your accountability partner, your spouse, your friends, your small group, is going to look different based on just where you're naturally going to run away and how you're naturally inclined to run towards Him. Let's talk for a minute about some specific rhythms. And again, these can and should look different for all of us because we are not the same person. But there can also be some real threads of things that are helpful for each of us and just how we pursue rhythms, because the challenges are the same.
We all face challenges, whether it's apathy or schedules or just not even knowing how or feeling like we're starting out alone if this is a discipline that you haven't pursued before. Some of those challenges are shared across the board. So I'd love to hear from each of you just what do some of the actual rhythms in your life look like to pursue Jesus in prayer?
Julie Kotulek:
I think if it's not maybe a little obvious from what I've shared so far, prayer is a spiritual discipline that is for sure a fight to get to for me. In some seasons it's easier, some it's harder. But just some very practical ways that that looks like for me right now is journaling for a couple of minutes in the morning and in the evening, starting and finishing my day with actual written words. Just because I've learned if we're talking about that emotional piece, and not only being in proximity, but truly being present and leaning in, I can express myself better with pen and paper, and I stay on track and I can say what I mean better. And so that has been really helpful to me. I read about a year ago, A Praying Life by Paul Miller, and that has really helped me in just these quick, shorter exchanges with God throughout my day.
I like this image that we keep going back to the couple at the table because I do think that there's a right time to sit down very intentionally with God and interact and ask questions and share and that kind of thing. But then if we're really thinking about relationships as just across the board, we have these moment to moment interactions throughout our day, that is also building intimacy and entering into relationship. And so I've really been trying to flex that muscle of, "I'm walking into this podcast recording and I'm feeling a little spent and a little bit on fumes, God, help me. Spirit, please give me the words to say, help me speak with clarity." And so just trying to flex that muscle. And then also just a huge natural rhythm that I have because I have a dog, is that I typically go on a 30 or 45-minute walk in the evening and have really been trying to not take headphones and to not listen to a podcast and to not fill that time with something that is a distraction, and to really enter in to prayer with God in that moment.
And I think one thing that has made that easier is the fact that I'm physically moving my body as well.
Christine Hoover:
There's a connection here.
Julie Kotulek:
And so it's helping me connect to God, to myself and to reality, to move my body and to be praying at the same time.
Alison Mezger:
That's good. I mean, you're taking advantage of all of the realities in your life and making the most of them to help them bring you to Him, which is really sweet to hear.
Christine Hoover:
Julie stole all of mine. I truly do exactly what she said.
Julie Kotulek:
Do you have a dog too?
Christine Hoover:
No.
Julie Kotulek:
Oh.
Christine Hoover:
But going for a walk and praying, I'm the weird lady whose talk ... I mean, I would say a key for me is saying the words out loud that I'm praying. And so going for a walk and just talking to God or in the car instead of turning on music, talking to God. I mean, my kids are older now. I don't have kids in the car, and so I have alone time and I can talk to him about things. But journaling is a huge one, and I've been doing it for so long now that it is so wonderful to look back. I just recently in the past year, reread several years of journals, and I could see, oh my goodness, God has answered so many things, or He has really grown me in an area I never thought I would be able to grow in. And so having that record is a record of His faithfulness more so than it is a record of my prayers. So I'm so glad that I've done that. I hope nobody ever reads them, but I'm so thankful that I have that record of talking to Him.
Alison Mezger:
That's great. Yeah. I think my answer's really similar to both of you guys. I loved back when we were studying the Amaya, one of the first sermons talked about how he shot up that first prayer before he went into the king. And it was such a good reminder of what you were saying, Julie, that in relationships we do have ... There's the equivalent of date night. There's the equivalent of the 20-year trip, but there's also just the equivalent of the text throughout the day, the quick check-in at the end of the day, how did that go? And so actually remembering that His ear is always inclined to me and that I don't have to have something put together. I do not have to have ... I think I struggled in thinking that I need to understand what it is I'm thinking or wrestling with before I bring that to Him.
And so it's all the thinking before actually ... And it's actually better if He gets the very raw version of it, where I'm still working through even what it is that we're talking about. That feels very uncomfortable for me, but He is the safest place for that. And so again, I find journaling really helpful for that. It often goes in circles and I end in a different place than I thought I was going. But then also taking advantage of car time has been, in this season of life for me, I think like you, Christine, a new opportunity, which has been really sweet. I
Christine Hoover:
I would also add that we talked about emotional connection at the beginning. Something that's been helpful for me is to be able to name an exact word of how I feel, and I also keep a list of soul words or emotion words. I know that sounds really juvenile, but I think we are not always taught how to acknowledge and name our emotions. And sometimes we think that they're bad as Christians, but God has created us as emotional beings. And to be able to name a very specific emotion, not just I feel sad, but I feel defeated, or I feel uncertain or whatever it is, to be able to name that and then to take that specific thing to God really has opened up an intimacy with God, because then He can remind me of truth. I know from scripture that speaks to that specific thing or attributes about Him, as I mentioned earlier. But I think that that's an important key that I'm learning currently in my prayer life that's been really fruitful.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, I love that. And keep it in your Bible. Yeah. Make that easy for yourself. The things that are hard for ourselves to do, if we can find the tips and tricks to make it easier, then I love that.
Julie Kotulek:
Really quick, because I have to know, do you guys have a specific journal and pen that you always have to use?
Christine Hoover:
I just use those cheap composition notebooks from the grocery store.
Alison Mezger:
Nice. Nice.
Christine Hoover:
They have lots of room.
Alison Mezger:
I have an overabundance of old women's retreat journals.
Julie Kotulek:
I knew this was going to be your answer, it's why I asked.
Alison Mezger:
So no joke, I don't think I have taken notes or had a prayer journal that wasn't in a retreat journal in eight years, but they are the perfect size. And yeah, that's my journal. I don't have a specific pen though.
Julie Kotulek:
That's a plug.
Alison Mezger:
It sounds like you do.
Julie Kotulek:
I do.
Alison Mezger:
It sounds like you have a very specific situation.
Julie Kotulek:
I specifically use Sketch journals instead of actual ...
Alison Mezger:
Oh, no lines?
Julie Kotulek:
No lines.
Christine Hoover:
How do you keep it straight?
Julie Kotulek:
I don't know. Just eye it. But I like the feel of the paper of a Sketch more than ... And your ink doesn't smear, so it's great. I'm a little flexible on the pen, but it's got to be a Sketch book.
Alison Mezger:
All right. Well, ladies, find the journal and pen situation you like best.
Christine Hoover:
Or I was going to say, that's a plug to come to Women's Retreat, you can get a journal.
Alison Mezger:
We'll give you a great journal. That's true. Okay. Let's talk for a minute about the very real reality of when you find yourself in a dry season, when couple days have gone by and you realize you really haven't prayed, you really haven't sat with God in that way. What does that look like? What do you turn to? What do you need when those seasons happen?
Christine Hoover:
I think the hardest times for me to pray are when I'm in a long season of suffering, where I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over and I don't see God acting. And there's some points where I've thought, "Well, what's the point? And where is He? Is He listening? Does He see?" And it's hard to continue to ask Him for things when you aren't sure that you can say yes, that He sees, that He hears. And so I've found those to be really difficult times. At the same time, I've found, I look back at those times and I see them as bittersweet times that those were the times where I really ... God showed me Himself in ways that I didn't expect, or I was asking for one thing, but He was doing another, and it was really good. And eventually I could see that. So I find those to be the hardest times. And that's where, to me, the Psalms come in. I read a Psalm a day, and once I get to the end, I start over because I just feel like ...
And I read other things too, but always a Psalm day because I just feel like there are times where I don't have the words and I need the words, and I also need permission to say, "How long, oh, Lord?" Or those kinds of things. And so the Psalms have just become very, very pivotal for me in those times. And I'm thankful that God has held me through those times and that I've continued on. I've continued to go to him. I mean, where else? Its like Peter, where else can I go? You have the words of life. So I haven't given up, but there have been times where I've felt like, "Well, what's the point?"
Alison Mezger:
Yep. You've said a couple of things that made me think about this resource. I'm wondering if you've ever come across it, Christine, but there's a really great little book called Teach Me to Feel: Worshiping Through the Psalms in Every Season of Life. It's by Courtney Reissig.
Christine Hoover:
Yes, I have.
Alison Mezger:
And guys, I can't recommend it enough. It combines what Christine was saying about knowing very specifically some words for some of the feelings that we have that we may not know how to name. But then also a great example of how the Psalms actually do speak to all of those. And so it's taking different emotions and actually showing you how they're rooted in the Psalms and how Psalmists experiencing those emotions, prayed those things back to God. So if you're feeling like you need a place to start with some of that, maybe outside of the different models for prayer that we've talked about generally with giving adoration and confession and thanksgiving and supplication, which is still a great way to think about our prayer life, this would be a resource I would recommend to people.
Christine Hoover:
It's a great book. And I think also sometimes when I don't know what to pray or I feel like giving up, just praying the Psalms out loud, or even some of the prayers like Colossians, where Paul's praying for the saints and his specific words, just saying those verses out loud as prayers for the times when we just don't know what to say anymore or we don't know how to pray for someone that we love, who we're concerned about, just praying those words has really helped me too.
Alison Mezger:
Especially when we feel like it's repetitive, I think that's really helpful. Yeah. What about you, Julie?
Julie Kotulek:
I think the soil of the drier season is pretty similar to yours, Christine. And I think what that typically looks like is I'm struggling to trust God, or I feel like He's not answering. And what that can manifest itself into is I think there's a period of avoidance for me. I think I don't lean in and address it and hold back and feel the bitterness or the doubt or that kind of thing. And then it often looks like coming and journaling pages. I don't typically find myself in the place where I don't have the words to say to God. It's moreso I need to say them, and we need to have this moment of vulnerability. And then what I need or where I need to go is I need to be reminded of who God is. In that moment, it's coming back to God's character for me and who I'm praying to and being encouraged and reminded of who He is.
Alison Mezger:
It's just such an important connection between even what we talked about in the last episode, that if we aren't reminding ourselves through the word who he is and what his promises are, then our prayers are likely to feel like they're missing something. They're going to feel like it's just us thinking because we're not able to really picture him on the other side of that, of a God who is, fill in the blank. We have to know Him from the word in order to know who we're talking to, and that does impact what we share and how we feel like He's responding to us in prayer. So that's really good. Okay. Couple last questions. Favorite resources, favorite things, and then we've talked about some journals. We've talked about getting your favorite pen, but other resources that you would recommend to someone who is, let's just say, maybe wanting to take an additional step in obedience in intentionally pursuing Jesus through prayer. Anything that comes to mind.
Julie Kotulek:
The two are buckets that I feel like I've hit on in what prayer tangibly looks like is moreso in starting of, how do I pray? What is intercession? What is supplication? What do these words mean? Prayer by Prayer, literally that's the title by Timothy Keller was really helpful. And then in the other bucket of more throughout my day, still intentional, but less focused, longer period of prayer that has been really helpful has been, and I already mentioned it, A Praying Life by Paul Miller. And then non-book resources. There's a sermon series by Bridgetown Church called Teach Us to Pray. That has been really good. And then also John Mark Comer just started practicing in the way where he's legitimately walking through the practice of spiritual disciplines, and the one on prayer comes out in January, so haven't personally tested it, but have walked through his Sabbath one and am excited for it.
Alison Mezger:
That's a podcast episode or video?
Julie Kotulek:
Podcast.
Alison Mezger:
Podcast.
Julie Kotulek:
Great.
Christine Hoover:
I would concur with a Praying Life by Paul Miller. I will confess, I do not choose to often read books on prayer because I'm like, ah. It feels, I don't know. This is the one spiritual discipline that feels a little bit, I don't know, maybe I'm always failing at it, and so I don't often choose to read resources on that, which maybe I should. But I have read a Praying Life, and I thought that was excellent, as Julie was talking about. I think one of the biggest ways of growth for me with prayer is just being in prayer with people who are, I would say, gifted in ... I don't know, that's not a spiritual gift listed in scripture, but people who love to pray and there's something about ... I have a friend who is this person, the way she prays is so full of faith, so she likely has the gift of faith.
But being in prayer with her and listening to the things that she requests of God, the eagerness and the passion with which she prays, it's not robotic. She is interceding to the Father in front of me and that example, and people like her. That's how I have grown more in prayer. I want to pray like that, believing that God is listening and He hears me.
Alison Mezger:
Well, it's no surprise that Jesus in teaching us how to pray, he didn't teach in the way that we think about someone instructing like, "Okay, here are the steps." Although those can be helpful, he gave an example, he prayed, and that was how he taught his disciples. So yeah, but sitting next to someone who is actively doing that and you can see their faith is really encouraging. Christine, that was actually my last question for you guys both was what does this look like in community? Because while the spiritual disciplines are ones that we all need to pursue individually, there is also a communal aspect to all of the ones that we're talking about. And so corporate prayer, it's addressed separately in scripture at times. I mean, there is an assumption that Christians will pray together, so I'd love for you to both reflect on what that looks like, what you find really sweet about it, and yeah, any final words of encouragement.
Christine Hoover:
We've talked about the vulnerability of prayer with Jesus, but I think there's something very vulnerable about praying with someone, not in a, "Oh, let's close this class with a prayer," but I'm sitting with a friend and we're talking about something that we're concerned about, or one of us is struggling, and that friend saying, "Let's pray together." To me, that's very vulnerable, but that's where the good stuff is. In terms of communal prayer, there've been times where I don't have the faith, but for my friend who's praying for me, I hear her faith and her hope, and it encourages my own. I think that is one of the ...
That's not point of the prayer, but the side effect of praying communally is sometimes we don't have the hope, but we can hear it in other people's voices, and they're calling upon God in ways we might not be able to, or we don't have the words for, or even sometimes the way they say things is differently, that it opens doors for us mentally of, "Oh, I can be praying that way too. I didn't even think about that." So I think it's a gift that God has given us, but it's a vulnerable thing that is hard sometimes to do.
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah. I think in hearing your question, the thought that came into my mind was prayer and community looks a lot like courage because I think throughout my faith and walk with Jesus, it's been like, how do I become obedient to those prompts throughout my day when I feel like I need to pray with this person, or I need to ask for prayer? Because I think it can feel a little bit like, "Oh, that's the Christian thing to say, or, oh, this is now awkward because I asked to pray for you," and just pressing through that and being like, "No, why would we not invite God into this?" Pressing back those lies, I think this plays out largely in LTG for me, whether we're together or we're not together, but it's reaching out for like, "How can I pray for you? Or here's how I need prayer today." And then I think in a very moment of bodies in a room, in a time of prayer, is my MC on Wednesdays. We fight to close in a good amount of prayer, and so that has been a really sweet time for us.
Alison Mezger:
I love the idea of what you just said, of being quick to respond to those little prompts that you feel the spirit say. I mean, how many of us are guilty? I'll confess. I certainly, am of being the one to say, "I will pray for you," and that's not actually happening. And how much more likely would it be to happen if I just said, "Can I pray for you right now? Let's stop and pray." So even as just a way to make myself not be a liar, but also the gift of them actually, of that other person getting to hear that prayer and be encouraged by it in the moment, not just knowing theoretically that someone says they're praying for them, which may or may not even happen. I would love to. I know for me personally, the idea of growing in responding in the moment, to pray like that and to ask for it when someone's like, "Can I pray for you?" I'm like, "Yeah, actually, could we just pray right now? I really could use prayer in this moment," and that being super scary to ask for, but ultimately really life giving.
Julie Kotulek:
Yeah. Persia, who was on episode one kills it. Yeah, she's great at it.
Alison Mezger:
She does that really well.
Julie Kotulek:
So is Darby, who we also work with.
Alison Mezger:
It's also, I think, a piece of prayer and community that has been really freeing for me, is the experience of we all want to be the friend, the sister, the accountability partner or the spouse that has the things to say when someone is sitting across me wrestling with something or grieving, and there is grace for that, and there is gifting that God gives and grace that the spirit gives in those moments to offer counsel and wisdom and that's good and beautiful, but it also has a limit. And I think it's been really helpful for me, as someone who, I want to be able to have the perfect thing to say to someone, and man, you get into plenty of situations, and it's like, "I don't have anything to offer right now." That hurts my pride. But then in the moment of actually being able to say, "I'm just going to pray now, with you. I don't know what else to say. This is so broken. This is so hard. I'm so devastated for or with you. I'm just going to pray."
And I think there's a humility in that that is uncomfortable, but it's inviting him into a situation that I'm acknowledging I can't do it in my humanity. I have nothing to offer here. And I think as I have experienced that from other people where we're in a dialogue or a conversation about something or someone's in tears and I see that person just say, "I don't know what else to say, so we have to just pray now," is really freeing because in that moment, whether you're the person saying that or the person receiving those prayers, it's rightly acknowledging that the care of us for one another is very powerful, but we are not God.
Julie Kotulek:
That's right.
Alison Mezger:
And we cannot be him. And so when you feel like, "I don't have anything left to give in this moment," as opposed to ending the conversation and saying, "Well, I will be praying for you," there's a really beautiful option to say, in desperation, "I'm actually going to sit here and prayer with you right now," and that may just mean tears for a while. There may not actually be words until the spirit gives them, but I think as I have witnessed, that it has encouraged me and made me want to be a person of prayer in that way where I'm just more willing to come to him in those moments of what feels like desperation. It's much more likely to happen in community, and that's a gift.
Christine Hoover:
Yeah. It's good to remember we have access to the one who can handle the things that concern us or worry us or hurt us, and he truly is our refuge, and we can go to him at any moment of our day and request that he act on our behalf. What a gift that is, that we can do that with our God.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek:
As negatively as you mentioned, that rubs against my pride to not have the words to say, that totally resonates with me. But as I continued to listen to you talk, it's so freeing that in this moment, I don't have to have the answer. And if I did and I messed it up, then it's still not on me. Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
That's right. That's right. Thank you guys.
Julie Kotulek:
Thank you.
Alison Mezger:
Thank you guys for leaning in and talking about what's hard and what's beautiful, but just the realities of what it looks like to be women who want to be women of prayer, and I think are growing in being women of prayer, but certainly need each other to continue to encourage us to that, remind each other why that's important, and that ultimately we do get Jesus on the other side of it. And so it's worth fighting for. It's worth telling your accountability partner that you're struggling in this area. It's worth having those conversations. So I really appreciate both of you. In our next episode, we're going to talk about something that we really can't talk about without it being covered in prayer because it's so counter to our flesh, the idea that we would confess and repent sin with one another.
We can't do that without being reminded that there is grace for us and that Jesus is who he says he is, but it is how we fight so much of what is fighting against us. We do that in community through confession and repentance. So we're going to dive into that topic next week. Friends, I hope you're encouraged. I hope you'll join us in the next episode where we talk about confession and repentance. I also hope you're signed up for Women's Retreat. Registration is still open. We would love to have you with us for the whole weekend where we really get to dive into all of the ways that Jesus is our refuge. We love you guys.