Alison Mezger is joined by Amanda Brown (St. John) and Angela Suh (North) to discuss how the oneness of God impacts our pursuit of holiness as whole, fully integrated disciples.
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year we’re focussing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series we focus on holiness and wholeness. Alison Mezger is joined by Amanda Brown (St. John) and Angela Suh (North) to discuss how the oneness of God impacts our pursuit of holiness as whole, fully integrated disciples.
00:00-00:19
Hey friends, welcome back to the Women's Cast. I'm Alison Mezger, and I'm so glad you're joining us for this episode in our series on holiness. We're five episodes in, and in some ways I know we are just scratching the surface. God has so much for us on this topic.
00:19-01:35
So far, we've touched on the critical roles that confession and repentance and community play in our pursuit of holiness. And we've talked about how our experiences of both freedom and loss impact our pursuit of holiness. We've covered a lot, and I highly encourage you to go back and give any episodes you've missed a listen. So where are we headed today? Well, it's a topic that honestly we didn't have on the list at first, but one I'm so glad made the cut because I know, at least for me personally, it has had a huge impact, a very practical one, on my pursuit of holiness. And that topic is wholeness. What do I mean by that? Let me unpack it for you just a little. In Matthew 22, we have this incredible conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees and Sadducees. It starts in verse 35. And one of them, an expert in the law, asked a question to test him. Teacher, which command in the law is the greatest? He said to them, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important command. The second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets depend on these two commands. This same encounter is recorded for us in Mark 12, but adds a couple of other details.
01:35-02:12
Jesus starts his answer by saying, listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And he adds that we're to love our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. So what we're seeing in this is that Jesus is summarizing the law, which perfectly reflects the holiness of God and is summed up in love. And he introduces the law by reminding them that the Lord our God is one. Yes, he exists in three persons. But the great mystery of the Trinity is that God is one. He is whole. He is perfectly integrated with himself.
02:12-02:37
What flows from that is the commandment that love, both towards God and towards others, is to come from whole, integrated people. It's to come from our heart, soul, mind, and strength. Holiness and wholeness are linked because God is both. The reason we're given the law is to show us how much we need a Savior.
02:37-03:32
Even just reading that commandment tells me how far I fall from it. All parts of me, all parts of all of us, are broken because of sin, and therefore condemned under the law. But if we're in Christ, all parts of us are redeemed by him and will one day be perfected. This not only means that holiness will reign, but that this perfect holiness will be in all parts of us. Wholeness will reign too. 2 Corinthians 3.18 says, There is a day coming where we'll both see God's glory, which is quite literally a reflection of his holiness, and we'll be perfectly holy because the transformation to look like him will be complete.
03:32-04:53
And that transformation includes all of us. It will be physical, mental, emotional, psychological, motivational, spiritual. The redemption Jesus purchased for us with his whole self, his perfectly sinless mind, perfectly sinless emotions, perfectly sinless motivations and actions, will perfect us for all time. So the big question for us today is if that's coming, what does that mean for us in our pursuit of holiness now? I can't wait to dive in with the two women I'm here with today, Amanda Brown and Angela Suh. You guys are both legitimate Austin Stone Women's Ministry OGers. So this is going to be really fun and maybe a little bit nerdy because I know us. So I'd love for you to introduce yourselves and tell us how long you've been at the Stone and what some of your milestones in particular with women's ministry have been. Amanda, why don't you get us started? Yeah, I'm Amanda Brown and I serve at St. John as our Director of Operations. I have been a partner at The Austin Stone since 2003 and have been active in women's ministry and equipping ministry since 2006 when I met Angela. Wow. Isn't that fun?
04:53-05:04
So yes, I started teaching in 2006 and then was on staff, came on staff in 2020 with our women's team.
05:04-05:09
Did that for a few years until I moved into my current role as Director of Operations at St. John.
05:10-05:58
My name is Angela Suh. I am married to Halim, who's one of our pastors here. And we started at the Stone in 2005 when he was hired on. So it'll be 20 years next year. Yeah. And I think some milestones in women's ministry, like back before we even truly had a women's ministry, I was invited to a class at Denise Stephens' house maybe the first week we were in Austin. And that was kind of the first like group of people that I even met at the Stone was sitting in Denise's house listening to her teach Galatians and then at another woman's house doing a covenant study. And so those were some of the first like true connections I remember having at the Stone was through women inviting me into their homes to study God's word together. So.
05:58-06:09
And you guys have both blessed us in different teaching environments over the years and lent your voice to a lot of resources we've done and different environments. But this is the first time we've all set together to do this.
06:09-06:10
That's really fun.
06:10-06:39
Yeah. We're going to dive right in. And this is I'm going to ask you for your vulnerability just right out of the gate. I would love to know how you most naturally connect with God. We talk a lot about kind of head, heart, hands. That's a framework for understanding kind of different aspects of humanity, but also how we're wired. So how do you most naturally connect with God? And then can you think of a time when you knew that you weren't connecting with him in kind of one of those ways?
06:39-06:40
And what did that look like?
06:41-06:45
I actually feel like I'm in a little bit of a midlife crisis here.
06:45-06:46
All right.
06:46-06:48
We can unpack this together.
06:48-07:41
And you guys have both known me long enough. I'm curious to know what you think. But I think I normally have thought of myself as a heart person. And I even think when I'm asked to teach something, it's generally because I've brought a heart bend to the content. But I'm in a weird space right now. I was talking to my husband about this last night. And though this isn't specific to the way that I relate to God, we're talking about just some situations and suffering that's come into our lives. And the ways that I've approached it in the past few years have been, I will take in the information and then I'm in like go mode.
07:41-08:23
With my hands in action. Right. And it takes me a long while for my heart to catch up to the thing. And I think because it just feels so vulnerable. And I'm starting to see some of that. I think I'm sober minded enough to, I'm starting to see some of that in my relationship with God too. And Alison, you and I have talked about some of this together of, I can struggle to feel like if my heart doesn't feel something, then does it mean that I don't believe it?
08:23-08:34
Or at the extreme, does it mean that I'm not saved? And my heart has felt safer on a shelf lately.
08:34-08:35
Yeah.
08:35-08:42
And I feel like that's new for me in the past few years. Yeah. So I, I don't know for sure how to answer the question. Yeah.
08:42-08:46
But you're, you sense a disconnect. I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
08:46-08:56
Heart has what's felt like you're inclined in that direction more easily. Yeah. And you sense that there's, it's harder right now. Yeah. I think so in the past few years. Thanks for sharing.
08:57-09:03
I don't think we have a solution for you. We'll keep talking. Okay. What about you, Angela?
09:03-09:11
I would believe that I am most naturally head person. I just, I love to read and study and research.
09:11-10:51
And that's sort of always been my bent. And I would say for a really long time, I did that at the cost of all the other heart and hands things. And so definitely I think knowledge puffed up could have been like my slogan walking around. And I would say over the years, like the Lord has started to grow me as a heart learner as well, especially just maybe like over the last four or five years, just with suffering and some hard things that have come into our lives. I was like, it's not enough for me to just know that these things are true. Like if they don't hold my heart and steady me and sit under me whenever I'm going through these things, then what good is it that I know them? And so he's been, I think, working that out in me a lot. I think my weakness is still always hands. I'm like, I know this thing and I may even feel so strongly about it. I don't either know what to do or I don't have the courage to do it. And so I usually need like a hands person to come like hold my hand and take me to do the thing that needs to be done. Yeah. Well, and what's true about all of these bents is that there's no, there's not one that's better. That's kind of, you know, spoiler alert, like we're talking about wholeness, like there's, we're meant to be engaged in all those ways and none of us do it perfectly by any means. When you guys think about holiness and wholeness, what's your first reaction to that? Like, is it something that you've thought about before?
10:51-11:12
Does it make you initially think of stories in your own life or in scripture? Like what just kind of comes to mind? I think when I first sort of saw the topic, one of the first things that came to mind was just thinking about what did sin do to us and that sin fractured and broke us in every single way.
11:12-11:30
And so if God has now saved us to be a holy people, then part of that has to be a restoration to wholeness because if sin came in and broke everything, then what is it going to look like for us to be conformed to the image of his son? It's like him putting us back together.
11:31-12:24
And so I think that was some of the initial thoughts I had. And I think some things that just stood out in scripture that I was really encouraged by was like David saying in the Psalms, like unite my heart to fear your name. And so like acknowledging there is like this division within me and, but God, I think you can do something about it. And then the same thing with Paul, like in Romans seven, where he describes himself as this person that I know the good I'm supposed to do, but I can't do it. So there's like this knowing and yet this doing that aren't sinking together. And then who can rescue me? Yeah. And he knows that Jesus will. And so just kind of this understanding of like, we have been bought for wholeness and that's been declared over us. And now we're catching up to what he's declared us to be. Yeah. That's good. Thank you for that.
12:24-12:33
What about you, Amanda? Yeah. I would say this idea of wholeness, I think feels relatively new to me.
12:33-12:52
I think in the past, before the past few years, I wouldn't have given it much thought, or if I did, I would be confused by the, I'm still confused by it. But, but, but I think the, the image or I guess the story that comes to mind most readily for me, when I think about wholeness and holiness is the garden.
12:52-13:08
We have Adam and Eve that are walking in the garden with God before the fall in their whole, in all the ways that you lined out heart, mind, soul, strength. And then of course the fall has happened.
13:08-13:41
And so if we know and believe that God is in the business of restoring us back to the version that we were always meant to be, it's good for us to consider what, what that looked like, what that felt like. And we only live in the shadow of what that, yeah, was and will be. Okay. That, that picture of the garden is really helpful. Amanda, what do you guys think? Holiness, if we take that as our, that's, that's the, what should have been, that's what we will ultimately be restored to.
13:41-14:18
When you think about all of those faculties, mental, emotional, physical, sexual, all, all of these parts of humanity, what do you think we can learn by looking back at that to, to better understand what integrated holiness looks like? Like, is there something from that picture that stands out, that would help us understand what holiness looks like across all of those different parts of what it means to be human? It's one of those things where I'm like, if I ever just sit down and like really try to think, could I explain this in language that my 10 year old would understand?
14:18-14:25
I'm kind of like, I don't know. Can I? Yeah. And so, you know, we always use like holy is set apart.
14:25-15:51
And that's great for when we think about ourselves, like we're set apart to worship God, we're set apart for him. But what does it mean that God is holy? Like he's set apart from us and that he's God and we're not God, but like, what else? And so just like, when you think about God and like, he is perfectly beautiful, perfectly merciful, perfectly knowledgeable, perfectly omnipresent, omnipotent, omni, all the omnis. And so, and then you think about how he acts, thinks, feels, desires, and it's all in line with prizing himself in all those ways at all times. And then it says that he decided to make us in his image. And so what does it mean that we come into this world as image bearers, but that we're supposed to love, prize, desire, act, think, speak, valuing him as the God that he is. And then at the first, almost first opportunity in the garden, they decided we don't want to do that. And so then the brokenness is moving away and saying, we want to find something else to prize and treasure and build our lives upon. And yet, if they're thinking, feeling, loving, doing all of that is no longer in line with what they were made for, then now they've been broken from the purpose for which they were made.
15:51-16:07
They're not bearing the image anymore. And so I think in so many ways, like sin and is looking at us and saying, we want to be the image, not the image bearer, but we are not holy in the way that God is holy.
16:07-16:15
And so if we're not holy in the way that God is holy, then we're trying to do something with our lives that we weren't created to do.
16:15-17:15
Yeah. I love that you use the phrase that we're, we understand holiness as being set apart from something. And that's obviously part of that definition. The other is that you're set apart for something. But what you're describing is really that the purpose that we all have as his image bearers, that we're not just, and I think this is where it can get, have implications on real practically, like my personal holiness isn't just not doing, like it's not just the list of sort of godly prohibitions, right? It's also me being set apart for something. That's really what you're getting at, which is like, I, I'm supposed to, my design pre-fall and what I'm being redeemed towards is to actually speak and do and love in a way that is as God exalting as he deserves. And that's so much more than just be holy and me interpret that as like, don't do the things you were told not to do. It's so much richer than that.
17:15-17:38
Yeah, I think it is, it is easier in the post-fall reality right now for us to think about holiness as what we are set apart from. But the idea of what are we set apart for is it's, it's recessed in my mind a little bit more. And I think what we're set apart for is to know God and to enjoy him and to glorify him.
17:39-17:49
And on this side of eternity, we will do all of those things as we pursue holiness in those things.
17:49-18:04
But even, even now we will only get to do that in a limited way until we get to see him and until we're, until we are whole before him. I was just talking last night. We had a friend over for dinner.
18:04-19:00
We were talking about heaven and we were talking about how in Revelation 2, it talks about how we're going to get new names. And I think we're just having this moment where imagining getting the new name and going, of course, of course, that's my name. Like that I had been living in a shadow of that name my whole life. And now I, I get to live in it fully. And I think that's, I think in the same way, the way that we are set apart for God, we're experiencing in some way right now. But when we come before him in all of eternity and he makes us whole in that, in that moment that we will experience what it means to be set apart for him in a, in a much more, in a completely full way.
19:00-22:10
Yeah. What a, what a great picture of what's coming for us. Yeah. Well, in the meantime, on this side of eternity, as you said, what does the experience of not being fully whole feel like to you personally? I feel it mostly. I think I mostly feel it physically. Most of the ways that I struggle in my holiness are related to my physical body. I've struggled with self-image all my life, struggled to like look in the mirror and know what I'm looking at. How do I feel about what I'm looking at? What am I going to do based on what I'm looking at? Just long to go to sleep so that I'm not tormented by my body for six to eight hours a night. I think as I've gotten older, it's the issues have compounded. My vision's not what I used to think. I used to brag about my fighter pilot vision and it turns out those days are over, you know? Can't fly planes anymore. No, I can't. So those types of things have impacted, impacted maybe isn't the right word, but they, it has been a fight for, it's been a fight for holiness in my life. So what you're describing is, I think a really personal example of the wholeness as we've discussed because of all being broken everywhere, but where, where you notice it the most. Um, it may not even be where it is the most extreme, but where you notice it the most is in your physical self. Yeah, that's helpful. What about you, Angela? Where do you experience or what is the experience of not being fully whole feel like for you personally? I feel like my mind and my thinking in some ways, I feel like it's knowing things about God or about how I ought to obey or ought to live. And then seeing that my life doesn't match up to that. I heard somebody tell me this quote by Eugene Peterson, where he said, I pray for God to increase my congruence between what I know and how I live. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I need. I need some congruence. That's a good word for it. Um, and then my thought life too, like, that's the place that I'm like, I'm supposed to be transformed by the renewing of my mind so that I can test and approve what God's will is. Right. But my mind is probably the place that I'm most likely to send because I'm most likely to try to escape the reality that I'm currently living in and be discontent. I'm trying to like fantasize about another life I could be living that would be easier or better, different in ways that I know it wouldn't be, but my heart's desire is for something easier. And so I know that that's where in my thoughts, like I'm ready to wander to.
22:10-24:36
And so also in my personal story, there's a family history of Alzheimer's. And so on hard days, I'm like, when I'm using my mind in ways that I know are not honoring to God and using my minds to think about the thing that is most worthy of thinking about, I'm like, maybe I will get Alzheimer's because if I'm not stewarding the thing he's given me, why would he let me keep it? And I don't truly believe God is like that, but that's where my mind immediately goes is I see what it looks like to truly lose your mind and the brokenness that comes in that physical failing. And I have this mind now, but how am I actually stewarding it with the purpose for which she's given it to me for? I mean, what I hear both of y'all say is to some degree, there's an element of fear in experiencing brokenness in one or multiple your faculties, but also just the experience of loss because it's broken. And so that, that because we, you know, our bodies are not what the resurrected bodies will have and our minds aren't perfect. It's all the, the holiness we're holding out for that will make us more whole. We're not only not seeing that, we're seeing the opposite of it. Like we're going to get more and more disintegrated and, or the fall is going to continue to impact us regardless of whether we're also being sanctified or while we're being sanctified. Yeah. When I, when I think about how I feel about this, it feels, I think that it feels tiring. The, the lack of experience of wholeness, the verse that immediately popped in my head was actually Philippians two, where Paul's saying, be like-minded, having the same level. He's, he's talking to a group of people and encouraging unity. But I hear that and I'm like, I'm not even like-minded with myself. Like I don't have the same love and being of one accord and one mind. Like my mind and heart fluctuate daily, if not hourly. Like when, you know, when I'm more operating out of the flesh and like not really abiding in him. And that is exhausting because I will, the, the, the coexistence of belief and doubts and the, the, the lack of congruence between what I know somewhere deep down, but then what I feel about that in the moment or, or how faithfully I'm acting on it.
24:36-26:40
Like that's an, I think, I just feel like it's an exhausting part of being human because we're meant to, for all of that to be integrated. Yeah. And it's, it's meant to be something that my mind doesn't have to question my heart. My heart doesn't have to question my mind or my body or my actions because it's all, it's, you know, it's often feels like there's too many voices going on. And to some degree there are like, that's what the brokenness looks like. I think what's clear amongst what all of us have shared is that there is a common experience of things being broken apart from each other in a way that, that is not like how we were designed to be. And I'm curious if there are aspects of your life that you find it easier to pursue holiness in. We talked about kind of how are you naturally inclined to just relate to God? And maybe it's the same, maybe it's not, but where does it feel the easiest to, or, or you feel most inclined or most encouraged to pursue holiness? And what are the areas that if you're honest, you forget about or are inclined to neglect? I, I think for me, I do actively pursue holiness with my mind in terms of, I've, I'm careful about the things that I watch, the things that I'm taking in. So the things that are on our TV or the things that I'm reading, cut out social media, because I'm trying to be more aware of the things that are distracting me from holiness. So there, those things can be unhelpful or just downright sinful at worst. Right. So I do find that that area has been an area that's been relatively easy, I would say, to pursue holiness in. The parts I think that are hard are, like I said earlier, related to my heart. I need to see some more counseling about this, I think.
26:40-26:59
Because I, I just find that, um, my heart feels safest on a shelf. And so it doesn't come down unless it gets knocked over or unless it's very intentionally taken down and opened and then put neatly away.
26:59-27:20
Yeah. Not to do a, or expect that we could do a full counseling session here. I mean, but can I ask, do you see that playing itself out both when you experience negative emotions or what we think of as negative emotions, sadness, anger versus positive ones? Or is it a general, like just your heart feels more removed from him?
27:20-28:10
Okay. That's a really good question. And I, I don't know for sure. I recently was processing this with my LTG and my friend said that all of our emotions are kind of on one, one knob. So if all of, if I'm trying to tamper down like my sadness or anger, I'm also not experiencing what we would call positive emotions to the fullest degree. Now I, I'm not a psychologist, so I, I don't know, or a counselor. I don't know for sure if that's accurate, but I thought it was interesting to go. I, I do, I would answer your question that it tends to be most of my negative quote, negative emotions.
28:10-28:26
But I do wonder if I'm not experiencing the fullness of my, what I would call my positive emotions, because I'm, I'm trying to be careful with the, the, all of the emotions.
28:26-28:31
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I, I personally think that kind of word picture is helpful.
28:31-28:31
Yeah.
28:31-28:33
That resonates with me. Yeah.
28:33-28:53
It seems like it would be not that there couldn't be exceptions, but it makes sense that dialing something back in terms of that intimacy with him or the, the freedom we feel to take those things to him, whether they're really positive or really negative, it's got to have some carryover in the other spaces as well. That makes sense to me. Yeah.
28:53-28:59
Thoughts for you, Angela, like where does it feel easiest or hardest to pursue holiness?
28:59-29:56
I almost feel like the easiest and the hardest are like, maybe like sometimes two sides of the same coin. Maybe like pursuing holiness and like entrusting all control, like he is in control of everything. And then on the flip side of that, I'm like the biggest worrier in the world, but that's almost what drives me to keep like repenting and going back and being like, God, I am trying to reach outside of my creatureliness and be the creator. And I am trying to control in an area that you have not said, I can bear your image in this area. And so I want to uphold you as the creator and the controller and the sovereign God of the universe. And I want to rest and being created.
29:56-30:47
And I'm trying to take your place right now. And so on some days I feel like I am just there and I'm like, God, just trust you and praying. And like we are like in it together, you know? And then I'll wake up at 3am and I'm like, well, me and Jesus love the universe. Got to do this together. You know? And I'm like, oh, I did it again. Okay. Okay. I'm back into my worrying vein, you know? And so it's almost like, I feel like I feel like one of the reasons that like I keep running to God and his sovereignty and control and like praising him and loving him and wanting to teach about that, like more than everything is because that's the part where I struggle the most to really like believe and pursue his way and not my own sinful way and being in control of everything.
30:47-31:11
I find that really encouraging to hear because I'm hearing you say it's an example of where I'm weak, he will be strong. We're like, this is an area where you recognize some weakness in your own flesh. And yet it has produced an area of relationship with him or maybe you're actually the most confident in him, but you wouldn't experience it without that weakness.
31:12-31:21
So it does sound like two sides of the same coin. Yeah. And not just I'm weak here and he's strong here, but they're related, which I think gives me hope.
31:21-31:26
Yeah. For the areas where I'm like, oh man, this is, this is where I need you the most.
31:26-31:26
Yeah.
31:26-31:28
That's really good.
31:28-31:29
What would you say, Alison?
31:30-31:44
Yeah. I mean, I'll confess to another midlife weirdness season phase where it, it, I would have always done most of my thinking.
31:44-31:52
And that's, that's a revealing word. I would have done most of my pursuit of holiness in probably a mental kind of space.
31:52-32:04
Like if I'm believing the right things and there is kind of a core belief there for me that like we can't love what we don't know and we can't obey someone that we don't love and know.
32:04-32:11
And so, you know, but there is that interrelatedness for all those things. I think I'm naturally inclined to that headspace.
32:11-32:19
But my short answer is it's easier for me to pursue holiness in areas of my life that I'm just naturally aware of.
32:19-32:27
And I think there are areas of in particular emotions that I've just never considered.
32:27-32:40
And so if you're not even thinking about them or taking them to like submit them to scripture or ask the Holy Spirit to help you grow, holiness isn't even on my radar because I'm not even thinking about that kind of like whole part of me.
32:40-32:45
Yeah. I think that has been true for me in seasons around emotions.
32:45-33:10
I think that has been something that has, has changed some in the past couple of years, but I've even experienced that with real, when I think about like physical health and being like a whole person stewarding like a physical body and all that, that like I just, if it's not on my radar in any kind of sphere, then it's not going to be on my radar in terms of pursuing holiness.
33:10-33:15
Like I think I could just have some blind spots to just hold parts of me.
33:15-33:21
So like a big learning.
33:21-33:31
I think the very simple statement of like, you are a whole person was kind of revolutionary or new to me, even just as a couple of years ago.
33:31-33:36
I'm like, I've never just thought about me as like having all of these parts all together.
33:36-33:37
Yeah.
33:37-33:41
And so I think I'm still kind of playing catch up on like, what even does that all include?
33:41-33:42
Yeah.
33:42-33:47
Where there could be more sanctification, holiness and Christ's likeness.
33:47-33:51
Like I'm sure I haven't even considered all the areas where there should be more holiness.
33:51-33:53
And more enjoyment.
33:53-33:54
And more enjoyment.
33:54-33:54
Yeah.
33:54-33:54
Yeah.
33:54-33:55
Yeah.
33:55-33:57
If I've only ever kind of thought about Jesus.
33:57-33:58
Yeah.
33:58-33:59
That I'm missing out.
33:59-33:59
Right.
33:59-34:00
Yeah.
34:00-34:02
And that's got to be the motivation for us.
34:02-34:03
Right.
34:03-34:09
In that pursuit of holiness is it's not, it's not just putting things off, but it's like putting more of him on.
34:09-34:10
And then enjoying him.
34:10-34:10
Gosh.
34:10-34:14
And if we forget that, then it's just, it's just the law.
34:14-34:14
Yeah.
34:14-34:18
You know, and none of us will actually stick with it because that's not very rewarding.
34:18-34:19
Yeah.
34:19-34:20
Okay.
34:20-34:21
We're going to get into some practical stuff.
34:21-34:22
Can I just add real quick?
34:22-34:23
Yes.
34:23-34:29
I love what you're saying, just even about how there are some parts that you can't even see at first.
34:29-34:35
And I honestly feel like so much of that, it's like God's kindness to us as he simplifies us.
34:35-34:41
Because like, imagine if all we could see was like just red flags everywhere.
34:41-34:42
Like I'm broken here.
34:42-34:42
I'm broken here.
34:42-34:43
I'm broken here.
34:43-34:49
I don't know what to do about this, but it's almost like he like gives you like this thing and he's like, hey, we're in the season and we're going to work on this.
34:49-34:50
Yeah.
34:50-34:53
And I'm going to be transforming you from one degree of glory to the next.
34:53-34:56
And we're going to do it in this area, you know?
34:56-35:05
And so it's almost like he does it in this kind, fatherly way, knowing our frame that we like can't handle seeing all of ourselves at once.
35:05-35:05
Yes.
35:05-35:16
I remember being a teenager and hearing someone teach that we were going to be fighting sin for our whole lives and that actually you were going to become more aware of your sin.
35:16-35:20
There was going to be more sin to fight the longer you walked with Jesus.
35:20-35:23
And that broke my brain and made me really discouraged.
35:23-35:26
I think in the earth, I'm like, it's going to get worse.
35:26-35:26
Yeah.
35:26-35:32
There's already so much that I know that I need him for and I'm weak in and I fail in.
35:32-35:34
But everything you're saying is true.
35:34-35:45
Like he doesn't, he's such a kind father in his discipline and pruning that he doesn't make us even aware of all that he's going to do in us at the time.
35:45-35:49
Like we don't have, I don't have the grace for the refinement that's coming for me tomorrow or today.
35:49-35:49
Right.
35:49-35:51
Yeah.
35:51-35:52
That's really important.
35:52-35:52
Yeah.
35:52-35:52
That's good.
35:52-35:59
Oh, I was going to ask if this could ever, when you think about like holistic holiness, if it ever feels overwhelming.
35:59-36:01
I think the answer we just said is yes.
36:01-36:11
And so it's by God's grace that he keeps us from feeling like we are, we have to do anything but obedient to what he's asking us to walk into today.
36:11-36:12
And that's it.
36:12-36:18
Well, real practically, how does spiritual disciplines fit into this?
36:18-36:20
I think they have to fit into it, right?
36:20-36:25
I mean, we can't pursue holiness without spiritual discipline.
36:25-36:25
No.
36:25-36:26
Yeah.
36:26-36:27
Am I right?
36:27-36:27
Agreed.
36:27-36:28
Agreed.
36:28-36:28
We all agree.
36:28-36:29
We all agree.
36:29-36:45
When you think about us being mental, emotional, physical, typically our spiritual disciplines will fit in one, maybe two of those categories.
36:45-36:57
But if we're to have sort of a, say, a balanced diet of all the things, what does that, when you think about even your own inclinations, does that challenge you to think about the disciplines you pursue differently?
36:57-37:02
Because you're not just trying to pursue holiness?
37:02-37:03
Or just emotionally?
37:03-37:20
I think that some things that I've just especially noticed lately that I'm like, these things are just changing my life and keeping me are one is scripture memory.
37:20-37:26
I just continue to do a passage.
37:26-37:33
I prefer to do a passage.
37:33-37:40
And then I'm like, I'm just going to do a passage.
37:40-37:41
I have to do a passage.
37:41-37:47
I'm just going to do a passage.
37:47-37:54
thought life is a lot of things that I'm going to do a passage.
37:54-37:58
And then it becomes something that I think about.
37:58-38:00
And then it fuels my prayers.
38:00-38:10
And so it just, I see that just over the course of years now of doing that, that that truly changes my life.
38:10-38:19
And then I think another thing, and this is so simple, but it's so true, is going to church on Sunday.
38:19-38:24
Like when I show up in my local church and like we worship together.
38:24-38:30
And I think like the longer that I've been walking with Jesus, I see more and more the value of this.
38:30-38:42
And some of the things that really hit me is when I look around and I see brothers and sisters that we have been in the same place for a long time walking towards Jesus together.
38:42-38:47
And there are a lot of people that have fallen away in the process.
38:47-38:56
And so when I see us still going after him and I'm like, you're still here.
38:56-38:57
I'm still here.
38:57-39:00
We still love Jesus and we're still going.
39:00-39:01
Yeah.
39:01-39:07
Like the way that that gives my heart courage, because I'm not just called to be a holy person.
39:07-39:09
I'm called to be part of a holy nation, you know?
39:09-39:13
And like when we go to glory, we don't go home till we all go home.
39:13-39:19
And so this is the community project and we are all pursuing holiness together.
39:19-39:27
And so I have to be there with brothers and sisters who are going to keep pointing me to Jesus so that we all make it to be it.
39:27-39:28
Yeah.
39:28-39:30
Your emotions are well placed there.
39:30-39:39
Like it's everything that you just said is a good encouragement for all of us that our holiness and our wholeness, these are community projects.
39:39-39:42
Like this is this is a family endeavor.
39:42-39:49
And that some of the disciplines are very personal and some of them are communal, that we actually have to do them together.
39:50-40:01
Obviously, most of the spiritual disciplines are kind of they're going to lend towards our mental and emotional kind of psychological health and relationship with Jesus.
40:01-40:06
What about other disciplines that have non-spiritual ones or the neutral ones?
40:06-40:09
Do you see them playing a role in this discussion at all?
40:09-40:13
Or how have you experienced other disciplines and their impact on you?
40:13-40:22
I mean, I think a lot of again, I'm back to like the physical side of me, my strength.
40:22-40:34
You know, if we're thinking about heart, mind, soul, strength and thinking about disciplines that impact my wholeness of exercising, eating well, sleeping well.
40:34-40:39
I would this is not this is not physically related.
40:39-40:52
I would even say for me in my mind, reading fiction, I would call a discipline for myself that I think lends itself to my wholeness.
40:52-40:56
I even thought about financial stewardship as a discipline.
40:56-41:00
Those are the ones that come to mind immediately.
41:00-41:00
Yeah.
41:00-41:08
And is the connection like walk us through the kind of the connection you're making, like those things aren't inherently spiritual.
41:08-41:08
Right.
41:08-41:09
But.
41:09-41:10
Yeah.
41:10-41:17
But I think I think God has given us all these things, our heart, mind, soul and strength to steward, to steward well.
41:18-41:30
And so even these things that are not necessarily spiritual disciplines, they still impact my experience of stewarding those things well.
41:30-41:37
And scripture says, whatever, whether you eat or drink, whatever you do, do it to the glory of God.
41:37-41:43
And so I can pursue holiness even through those things that are not inherently spiritual.
41:44-41:44
Mm hmm.
41:44-41:45
Yeah.
41:45-41:52
I've I'll add to that, that I've experienced, I think, needing to grow in just the discipline of disciplines.
41:52-42:01
You know, like I'm not going to be disciplined in my Bible intake or my prayer life or even going to church on Sunday.
42:01-42:07
Like there are a lot of disciplines that can be jeopardized if I, in general, struggle with any disciplines.
42:08-42:08
Right.
42:08-42:19
And so there's some there's some crossover in growing in discipline in one area and that not just being fruitful in that area that hopefully God would use that to help me grow over here.
42:19-42:21
But the opposite of that is also true.
42:21-42:27
Like seasons where I've struggled with discipline, you know, in areas that didn't seem spiritual.
42:27-42:35
But then it actually makes my the spiritual disciplines harder because I'm just kind of falling behind in the discipline.
42:35-42:35
Yeah.
42:35-42:44
I've also, I think, just experienced recently some of the some some carryover or some impact in some of those areas that I wouldn't have expected.
42:44-42:52
Like wanting to, you know, grow up in some physical health was going on a lot more walks.
42:52-42:57
And initially that's really primarily motivated by physical health.
42:57-43:06
But the impact that that's had on me in this season of of spiritual health, because I didn't want it to.
43:06-43:12
And I don't use that time always to listen to worship music or pray or listen to sermon.
43:12-43:14
I do some of the time. Sometimes I listen to fiction.
43:14-43:22
Sometimes I don't listen to anything intentionally to like let my mind wander so I can kind of get a pulse on even where I am.
43:22-43:28
But it has had more of an impact on my spiritual health than I.
43:28-43:30
I've honestly been kind of blown away by it.
43:30-43:41
Like I didn't set out for that to be a byproduct, but it was it's maybe the discipline that the Lord has used in the past six months or so of my life more than any others.
43:41-43:43
And I didn't set out for it to be that.
43:43-43:43
Yeah.
43:43-43:53
And I think that was pretty like eye opening for me of how connected those things can be when they're when when they're growing in health.
43:54-44:00
And then that's very eye opening when I think about like, oh, gosh, the opposite of that must also be true.
44:00-44:03
And then you start to think about other seasons and you're like, oh, it is true.
44:03-44:05
And some of those disciplines fall away.
44:05-44:10
Like it has impacts in other areas of my life that on paper didn't seem connected.
44:10-44:10
Yeah.
44:11-44:15
I what you just made me think of is the movie Chariots of Fire.
44:15-44:16
OK, let's go.
44:16-44:17
Yeah.
44:17-44:24
And there's that famous line that says something like I I run because God made me fast.
44:24-44:27
And when I run, I feel his pleasure.
44:27-44:27
Mm hmm.
44:28-44:32
And it may not be it may not be exercise at all.
44:32-44:45
But but he has given us some things to steward and to enjoy him with that are going to be unique and that you're going to experience part of who he is in a unique way that it unlocks.
44:46-44:51
You know, I love that you you're experiencing that for even at our age, too.
44:51-44:52
You're like something new.
44:52-44:53
Gosh.
44:53-44:53
Yeah.
44:53-44:54
So cool.
44:54-44:55
I love that.
44:55-44:56
Yeah.
44:56-44:57
No, I think that's true.
44:57-45:01
Like that's part of we all have those facets of what it means to be human.
45:01-45:12
And at the same time, each of his image bearers is so you that there are going to be ways that you and I are each wired differently to see him.
45:12-45:12
Yeah.
45:12-45:15
Like I could never enjoy making a quilt, Amanda.
45:15-45:18
It is not possible.
45:18-45:22
And yet I think you feel God's pleasure when you quilt.
45:22-45:24
And I think never small things make something beautiful.
45:24-45:27
See, and you talk about it and it causes me to worship.
45:27-45:34
I'm like, praise God that Amanda Brown can quilt and has found, you know, has experienced God's future in doing that.
45:34-45:37
Any follow up thoughts from you, Angela, on the discipline piece?
45:37-45:44
Um, I totally echo Amanda's reading good fiction.
45:44-45:58
Like I feel like the growing of my imagination in that way has carried over to like when I read scripture, because think about all the language we have about the new heavens and new earth.
45:58-46:00
It's all things that we have to imagine.
46:00-46:06
And so growing my imagination through the reading of fiction has served me well.
46:06-46:10
If I'm trying to sit there and consider what is it going to look like?
46:10-46:11
What is it going to be like?
46:11-46:12
How am I going to feel?
46:12-46:13
What is it?
46:13-46:16
What will all this be like?
46:16-46:18
And so I echo that.
46:18-46:20
I echo the walking.
46:20-46:29
I love like going outdoors and being outside instead of inside and surrounding yourself with nature.
46:29-46:32
Halim and I started going on walks during COVID.
46:33-46:35
There's a great trail by our house that we found.
46:35-46:40
And we step out onto this trail and it feels like you're in the middle of a forest.
46:40-46:45
And I'm like walking through it just being like, God made this, you know?
46:45-46:47
And it's a time that we walk together.
46:47-46:50
We talk through things in our marriage.
46:50-46:52
We talk through things about our kids.
46:52-46:54
We spend time praying for each other.
46:54-47:00
Like it's just this time where we talk through a sermon he's going to preach or something I'm going to teach.
47:00-47:08
And so these walks are walks, but they're times of connection and they help our marriage to thrive and point each other towards Jesus.
47:08-47:14
And that discipline like has been amazing for us.
47:14-47:14
Yeah.
47:14-47:15
Yeah.
47:15-47:22
For some reasons, y'all are making me think about the reality that disciplines are inherently something that you do.
47:22-47:27
You kind of have to make yourself do to break out of what you would normally do if that discipline wasn't in place.
47:27-47:28
Yeah.
47:28-47:28
Right.
47:28-47:35
Like it's a break from the norm or the daily, even if they're disciplines that happen daily.
47:35-47:38
Like you have to break into your life to carve out something.
47:39-47:54
And that even just doing that is acknowledging that we aren't naturally like looking up at him or looking away from ourselves, looking out into the world he created, looking out towards others the way that we're intended to.
47:54-48:08
So we intentionally have to have those disciplines to like kind of break us out of our what would just be our normal, selfish, you know, internally focused worlds that there's so much else he's expecting us or wanting us to experience.
48:09-48:17
But I don't think I view them often enough as the gift that they are intended to be to like help lift my gaze towards him.
48:17-48:17
Yeah.
48:17-48:21
You know, as simple as like going outside and being like, my problems feel big.
48:21-48:22
Look at that sky.
48:22-48:22
Mm-hmm.
48:23-48:24
There's a God who made that sky.
48:24-48:29
And I'm not going to necessarily have that thought if I'm still in my room.
48:29-48:29
Yeah.
48:29-48:31
I have to kind of break out of that.
48:31-48:31
Yeah.
48:31-48:32
Yeah.
48:32-48:33
And that's a gift.
48:33-48:33
Mm-hmm.
48:33-48:34
That's good.
48:34-48:38
Well, let's end with talking about how we help each other do this.
48:38-48:48
We already acknowledge the reality that when you're thinking about becoming holy in a holistic way, that can feel really overwhelming.
48:48-48:57
But I want to go back to really, honestly, our first two podcast episodes in this series talking about confession and repentance, also the role of community.
48:57-48:58
Mm-hmm.
48:58-49:05
So let's talk about those two things, about how we bring confession and repentance into this conversation.
49:05-49:11
And then second piece is what does it mean for this to actually be a community project for us?
49:11-49:13
So thoughts on confession and repentance.
49:13-49:18
How do we apply that in a way that's not just in one area of our life?
49:18-49:35
Something I've thought about and especially like talked with my kids about is I want us to, like when we go to the word, like we pray, like, God, would you show us who you are so that we can see you as you actually are?
49:35-49:38
So that then we can see ourselves as we are.
49:38-49:49
And so confession and repentance, I feel like a lot of times comes in for me when I recognize who God is and who he made me to be.
49:49-49:59
And kind of like I referred to earlier, when I'm trying to reach outside of being an image bearer to take over control of something that he has not given to me.
49:59-50:08
When I'm trying to be omniscient and know things that are stressing me out because I wasn't made to know all things.
50:08-50:11
When I'm trying to control things that he hasn't given me to control.
50:11-50:17
When I'm trying to gain approval from every single person when he's told me that I was made for his approval.
50:17-50:21
You know, and so in so many ways, it's me looking at him and going, God, who are you?
50:21-50:23
Who have you made me to be?
50:23-50:25
How am I trying to go outside of that?
50:25-50:28
Like, what are the boundaries that you have set for me?
50:28-50:31
But I'm saying I want to go play in that sandbox, you know?
50:31-50:37
And so a lot of my repentance is, this is not the image bearer you have made me to be.
50:37-50:44
Now let me rest and be content in being who you've actually made me to be and reflect your image that way.
50:44-50:53
And so I think a lot of that kind of confession and repentance and community happens, I would say, in my home.
50:53-50:59
Because that's so much of where I am trying to be God, if that makes sense.
50:59-51:04
It's like, especially with my children, I feel like I'm always trying to be God over them.
51:04-51:06
And that's not working out.
51:06-51:14
Well, I think what you said was so helpful because you're reminding yourself how intentionally broad the idea of holiness is.
51:14-51:23
And therefore, it's, I mean, everything under the sun that is included in what we should be looking for opportunities to confess and repent in.
51:23-51:28
And that means that one day you may feel conviction about something that you were believing.
51:29-51:32
The next day it's how, you know, you were processing an emotion.
51:32-51:33
The next day it's a behavior.
51:33-51:43
And you're not limiting what holiness looks like by just getting in the habit of thinking that it's only, it's only these beliefs.
51:43-51:44
Yeah.
51:44-51:45
So I think, I think that's really helpful.
51:45-51:47
It's like, this is how God has made us.
51:47-51:48
Yeah.
51:48-51:53
That we don't need to repent ever for not being God, for not being omniscient or all the things you just said.
51:53-51:56
We just have to repent for the areas where we're actually trying to be him.
51:56-51:57
Yeah.
51:57-51:58
Instead of letting him be.
51:58-52:03
That reminds me of that quote that Persia used at Women's Retreat from Henry Nguyen.
52:03-52:08
And she was like, so much of relationships is us repenting to one another for not being God.
52:08-52:09
Yeah.
52:09-52:12
You know, and so I feel that's almost where the community piece comes in.
52:12-52:18
And it's like, I'm recognizing that in this scenario, this is what I was trying to do.
52:18-52:19
And this is who I was trying to be.
52:19-52:20
And I'm not God.
52:20-52:24
And so, you know, where I failed you, I'm not God.
52:24-52:26
So he's there to meet your needs.
52:26-52:28
Where I overexerted, I was not God.
52:28-52:29
And I should not have done that.
52:29-52:45
Just so much of that, that quote, whenever she said that, that really resonated with me for how I kind of have in my mind about being an image bearer and trying to live outside of that in sinful ways.
52:45-52:45
Yeah.
52:45-52:51
The story of Isaiah came to mind as I was thinking about this.
52:51-53:01
When Isaiah is in the temple and it's filled with the presence of God and the angels are, I think they're flying around.
53:01-53:04
They're calling out, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.
53:04-53:10
And he, in the building, the temple starts to shake, tremble.
53:10-53:16
And he falls to the ground and says, woe is me.
53:16-53:18
I'm a man of unclean lips.
53:18-53:19
Isn't that right?
53:19-53:20
Yeah.
53:20-53:29
And an angel comes to him with the coal and pushes, presses it to his lips and says, your sins are atoned for.
53:29-53:37
And up until that point, this whole experience for him is he's just in the presence of God.
53:37-53:40
He's just surrounded by God's holiness.
53:40-53:44
He hasn't actually had a conversation with God.
53:44-53:46
He's just in his presence.
53:46-53:51
And his presence alone is what shows him how unholy he is.
53:51-53:54
And he cries out.
53:54-53:55
He repents.
53:55-53:55
Yeah.
53:56-54:07
And then we see Isaiah and God start to have a conversation where God invites him into, he says, whom shall I sin?
54:08-54:31
And I think it comes to mind because I see as sisters in Christ, like that when we are in Christ, when we're in a covenant relationship with him, this holiness is an invitation to repentance and into a pursuit of holiness and wholeness.
54:31-54:38
And so I just think, gosh, repentance can feel so awful.
54:38-54:39
Yeah.
54:39-54:42
And I'm sure it felt awful to Isaiah.
54:42-54:45
Like, I'm sure it felt awful to have that.
54:45-54:49
It probably was so painful to have that coal on his lips.
54:49-55:00
And it feels so painful to us, but I don't think we see it as an invitation from God to pursue holiness with him.
55:00-55:00
You know?
55:00-55:01
Yeah.
55:01-55:06
So it reminds me of, you know, the old tried and true women's ministry.
55:06-55:09
Like, we have nothing to prove, nothing to lose.
55:09-55:10
All of it is secure.
55:10-55:15
And so repentance is, there's nothing to risk here.
55:15-55:15
Yeah.
55:15-55:16
Yeah.
55:16-55:18
Which means all parts of you get to be on the table.
55:18-55:19
Yeah.
55:19-55:20
For that conversation.
55:20-55:20
Yeah.
55:20-55:23
I think that's what feels hopefully very freeing.
55:24-55:40
If the goodness of God is really on the other side of that invitation, then it means I can take, you know, then we really can start to try to live out the greatest commandment, which is loving him with our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
55:40-55:45
Which means I can bring my heart, my mind, my strength, my soul.
55:45-55:52
I can bring all of that and put it out on the table for close friends and community to speak into.
55:52-55:58
And that not feel, it can still feel scary because vulnerability is scary.
55:58-56:02
But I know that God's on the other side of that.
56:02-56:09
And he doesn't just want my mental ascension that he is, or my mental agreement that he is who he says he is.
56:09-56:10
Like, he wants all of those things.
56:10-56:11
Yeah.
56:11-56:14
But the invitation is actually sweet.
56:14-56:16
It's an invitation you want to have said yes to.
56:16-56:17
Right.
56:17-56:18
Yeah.
56:18-56:19
That's good.
56:19-56:20
And I agree.
56:20-56:28
Like, what you're saying is, like, the repentance piece is actually helping us to move toward that holiness.
56:28-56:37
And I just haven't came into my mind that Piper, I don't know, he said it maybe a lot of times, but, like, the holiest will be happiest.
56:37-56:49
That, like, the idea of, like, okay, so if you were made to pursue God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, then your greatest joy is going to be found in serving God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving him with that.
56:49-57:07
So if repentance is bringing you closer in, you're actually moving towards joy, whereas if we keep running away from it or fearing the pain of it, then we're actually keeping ourselves from the holiness and the happiness that comes with it.
57:07-57:07
Yeah.
57:07-57:17
That quote is so great, that the holiest will be happiest, because that's not just something that's being said theoretically about people.
57:17-57:20
It's being said because that is true of God, right?
57:20-57:22
Perfectly holy, and he is the happiest.
57:22-57:24
And he's also whole.
57:24-57:26
Like, he is the Lord our God is one.
57:27-57:30
So there's none of the disconnects, none of the tensions.
57:30-57:44
He doesn't feel, yeah, he doesn't feel any of that separation that can so often, like, not only our communities, like, we feel separated from each other and not united, but we feel that internally.
57:44-57:46
And that turmoil will one day go away.
57:46-57:54
And your mind and your heart and your soul will all be in perfect agreement with everything that agrees with him.
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And I don't even think, in some ways, this all still feels very theoretical to me, because I don't even think we have, we're so disintegrated and broken that we don't even have a good enough understanding of what that will be like to be as excited about it as I think we probably should.
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Like, I think it's going to blow our minds how amazing it feels for all of us to be so in line, not just with him, but, like, internally, that internal world to be so lined up.
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So thank you guys for at least getting us started in this.
58:29-58:33
I hope it's an encouragement to all the gals listening.
58:33-58:50
You know, I think if there's one encouragement I could give, it's to keep considering the breadth of who God is and know that if we're made in his image, that there's so much about all the different aspects of who he is that we are meant to reflect.
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And yet, we're supposed to do that in a way that is unified internally.
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And so that's a fun conversation to start with, maybe your accountability partner or your roommate or husband, of where do you see opportunities for me to grow in holiness that I may not be able to see right now?
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Because I tend to just look here.
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And that, again, that feels really vulnerable.
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But if intimacy and joy is on the other side of that, it's a vulnerable question that we should, I think we will be glad that we have done the work to ask it.
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So thank you guys for speaking into that today.
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Friends, I hope you'll keep listening.
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In our next episode, Christy Kennedy, our women's director at West, is going to facilitate a conversation around holiness and spiritual gifts.
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And answer some big questions like why we should prioritize correction and character development, overdevelopment of gifts, and how both are meant to be a blessing to others.
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So you will definitely want to tune in.
59:49-59:51
Thanks again for joining us.
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We love you guys.
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We love you guys.
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We love you guys.
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you Oh, oh, oh, oh.
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you you