In the final episode of our podcast series on Holiness, we will discuss the relationship between holiness and perseverance.
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year we’re focussing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series we focus on holiness and perseverance.
In the final episode of our podcast series on Holiness, we will discuss the relationship between holiness and perseverance. How does a Christian last in their relationship with Jesus until the end of their lives? Why is endurance so hard? In this episode, South Congregation Equipping & Women’s Director, Purshia Gambles is joined by Louisa Day from our South Congregation and Denise Stephens from our West Congregation.
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Hi, buddies. My name is Purshia Gambles, and I serve our South Congregation as the Equipping and Women's Ministry Director. If you've been journeying with us the last several episodes of this series, you know that we've been exploring various aspects of the Christian life and how the theme for the year ahead in women's ministry, holiness, impacts them. There have been episodes on repentance, community, freedom, loss, wholeness, gifts, and our witness as Christ followers.
It's been such a gift to listen and learn from women across our church who cry, laugh, and love Jesus more through sharing their stories. And this episode is no different. Today, we're continuing our series with a discussion on holiness and perseverance. Each of the podcast topics that we've explored and stories we have heard shed light on a facet of our lives with Jesus. This fruit salad, if you will, of topics covered in the last several weeks, if digested and applied regularly over a lifetime, fuel a person's race and relationship with Jesus until we see his face in heaven. Like Christine so beautifully laid out in our second episode, we cannot fully attain any sort of practical holiness without first tasting the positional holiness given to everyone who places saving faith in Christ.
Now, I bring this back into focus for our conversation today because it serves as the foundation for being able to endure and persevere in this life. Our understanding of things like repentance, justification, and sanctification help pave the road that we walk on as we journey through this life with Jesus toward Jesus. The theologian John Frame defined the doctrine or teaching of perseverance of the saints, sometimes also called the doctrine of eternal security, as the truth that those who have placed faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior can never lose their salvation or their saving union with Christ. And most ultimately, the Bible has much to say about this. Hebrews 10 encourages believers to draw near to the Lord in full assurance of faith. And that our motivation and ability to seek him this way, as talked about in first Peter, provides us with a sure and steadfast anchor for the soul.
Romans 8 gives a helpful illustration as Paul lays out the stair step of eternal life that we experience in our lifelong pursuit of Christ.
Halfway through that chapter, Paul says, Those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified.
And those whom he justified, he also glorified.
Friends, the nature of perseverance is what God does in between those words justified and glorified.
If our positional holiness is dependent on God's holy nature being imparted to us in Christ, then our lifelong perseverance will depend on God's consistency in keeping his promises through the work of Christ.
We are kept because God is a keeper.
And his holiness is the foundation for being able to trust that.
Now, I also keep coming back to this language of race and journey and road because it is probably the most helpful illustration in the discussion on perseverance.
Each of us, whether we acknowledge it or not, is on a long journey somewhere in life.
And for Christians, it's the world's longest journey home.
Think of movies like Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, or The Wizard of Oz, or A Personal Favorite, Are We There Yet?
Folks find themselves on a yellow brick road or on a plane, train, or automobile just trying to make it back to where they belong.
A place of safety, love, peace, and security.
A place where, like J.R.R. Tolkien said, everything sad will become untrue.
So we've got our journey mapped out, the road we're to journey on, and the directions to know how to make it there.
Plus, God has promised to get us where we need to be.
Smooth sailing, right?
Shockingly, no!
Anyone, having been a Christian for longer than, say, 10 minutes, knows that it's a journey not for the faint of heart.
This side of eternity, we experience unfathomable beauty and crushing disappointment.
Deep healing and lifelong effects from hurts either caused by us or done to us.
Friends walking away from the faith.
Exhaustion, apathy, loss, injustice.
Even the boredom of the mundane can trick us into thinking that the Christian life isn't all it's cracked up to be.
All the while, we continue fighting for the belief that redemption has been given and full and final restoration is coming.
Now, if you're anything like me, this sounds kind of exhausting, doesn't it?
Well, if it does, friend, know that you are not alone and that there is hope to be found, an endless reservoir of it, actually.
Eugene Peterson wrote in his classic book, A Long Obedience in the Same Direction.
The central reality for Christians is the personal, unalterable, persevering commitment God makes to us.
Perseverance is not the result of our determination.
It is a result of God's faithfulness.
We survive in the way of faith not because we have extraordinary stamina, but because God is righteous.
Because God sticks with us.
This should be deeply comforting to us, y'all.
Though the journey home is long and often difficult, it's never one that we walk with just our own two feet.
I think this should and often does bring the question to mind, how does that promise of eternal security guide and direct my current pursuit of holiness here and now?
Or, in more socially understood language, what they got to do with today?
And most vulnerably, how can we know that we will make it to the end?
I can't hide that these feel like pretty weighty questions, asking into an even weightier topic.
The aid for those feelings comes by way of solid, faithful friends.
My heavenly homie mentioned a minute ago, Eugene Peterson, also once wrote, everyone who travels the road of faith requires roadside assistance from time to time.
We need cheering up when spirits flag.
We need direction when the way is unclear.
And boy, do I have a huge traffic cone with me here today.
The woman that is here joining me has given me personally, Purshia, the challenge and encouragement needed to endure on my own path and persevering in my race toward Jesus.
Plus, she is a top tier hang.
Hello, Louisa.
Thank you for joining me here today.
Hi, Purshia.
I can assure you the pleasure is all mine.
Oh.
Hi, everyone.
My name is Louisa.
I attend the South Congregation.
I've been there for about three years now, but with the stone off and on since 2009.
And I have the distinct honor of serving with Purshia on the women's leadership team at South.
You do.
It feels right to say that Louisa is genuinely one of the funniest people I've ever met.
And I watch stand-up comedy.
I know lots of funny people.
I find myself to be humorous a time or two.
But I feel like it doesn't hold a candle to Miss Louisa Day because she's one of those people that says very, like, normal things with perfect tone to make you know, oh, my gosh, this is hilarious.
Like, one time we were hanging out.
I tell this story a lot.
It's just really funny to me.
Like, we were hanging out, and we were about to, like, go our separate ways for the day or for the night or whatever.
And we hug, and then she looks at me, and she goes, I'll see you again.
And it made me go two different roads with that.
Like, on one end, I'm like, is that a threat?
Like, is that, like, I owe you money, you know?
Or is it, like, the way that people end, like, hinge dates where it's like, oh, I'll text you.
And it's like, well, I'm free next week.
And it's like, so?
You know?
It's kind of like that.
And I really love that you're that way.
Well, here we are seeing each other again.
You were right.
I would say I strive for two things in life.
One, holiness.
And two, to make you laugh.
So.
And I would say you do both pretty faithfully.
Oh, thanks.
Okay.
So, I got a couple questions for us as we walk through what it looks like to pursue both holiness and perseverance in this life.
And you being one of the most holy and persevering people I readily know, I'm so excited to talk to you for the next hour or so.
I'm excited, too.
Thanks, Purshia.
Come on.
Okay.
Up first, what is the relationship between holiness and perseverance?
Why should we understand that there is a relationship between the two?
Yeah.
So, I think to answer this question, we need to understand what these words mean.
And this is what they mean to Louisa.
Holiness.
Right?
A sacred belonging to the one true God.
Holy is who Jesus is and what we as believers strive to be.
So, perseverance is the striving.
I mean, Scripture talks so much about enduring, pressing on, thinking of Romans 5, you know.
Rejoicing in suffering because it produces endurance.
And endurance produces character and character hope.
James 1.
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial.
For when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.
The relationship between the two is the daily process of striving to look like, to be like Jesus, which is our sanctification, as you mentioned before.
Our set-apartness.
I think holiness is in direct relationship to perseverance because we can't have one without the other.
Thinking even of Hebrews 12 now, which talks about endurance and Jesus perfecting our faith.
We do have paths set before us, so the race, the journey that you mentioned as well, to be holy, as Jesus is holy.
And to keep on that path, we do have to persevere through the weightiness of life.
It's true.
Man, I think it's really powerful that all of the scriptures that you mentioned, but especially in Hebrews, like where we talk about our faith being perfected.
I think in the road of enduring, we don't think about the refinement being fun, because it usually isn't.
But we do think about it being necessary and worth it.
Absolutely.
You know, that's really, really good.
I think the relationship between holiness and perseverance to me is likely because of the direction we're going in toward Jesus.
Right.
And because of the nature of sanctification being made to look more like Jesus, you only want to journey toward what you consumed and want to be like, you know?
And so daily seeking after, daily abiding, daily investing time into your relationship with Jesus, that makes that journey that much sweeter because you're enjoying him now.
And you know that if you make it to the end, which you will, we'll talk about that more in a minute, if you make it to the end, you get him in the full.
Yeah.
But you can only, you can only know that if you experience it as you live out the, as you experientially live out the holiness granted to you in your salvation.
So the two are, it seems to both of us, inseparably linked.
You know, like who, who endures to the end?
Holy people.
And who, how do holy people make it?
By living out the holiness that they first been given in Christ.
Okay.
If you had to answer the question, how can we know that we will make it to the end?
How would you answer?
I'm very excited to hear your answer on this one.
But the thing that immediately pops into my head is to stay.
If we are his, he will stay us.
So stay in his words, stay in prayer, stay in biblical community, stay in worship and all of him.
If we do these things and with the indwelling Holy Spirit within us, he will stay us.
He will keep us.
You mentioned earlier, he's a keeper.
One of my favorite phrases in the whole Bible is, now to him who is able.
We see it a few times throughout the New Testament.
In Romans 16, now to him who is able to strengthen you.
In Ephesians 3, now to him who is able to do far more.
In Jude, now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling.
He is able.
And not only able, but he will do it.
And we can be fully convinced of this because we've witnessed his faithfulness.
Hebrews 10, 23, you mentioned Hebrews 10 earlier as well.
But let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering for he who promises faithful.
Indeed.
That is so good.
Like, if we practically day in, day out stay with God in much larger proportion, he stays with us.
Yes.
That's so beautiful.
I can't think about any other passage than Romans 8, which I've said this on this podcast before, but my homie, John Piper, said this is the greatest chapter in all the Bible.
He didn't say it to me.
He said it to a bunch of other people.
But I was listening.
He said that it's the greatest chapter in the Bible because of how much it communicates the whole of the Christian life in the real irrevocable glory that is to be found in the love of God given to us in Christ.
But in the middle of it, halfway through the chapter, like I talked about earlier in my little intro, in Romans 8, he says, Every single part of that multi, you know, part sentence communicates what God is doing with us, in us, for us.
Every single part of that multi, you know, part sentence communicates what God is doing with us, in us, for us, through the work of Christ in our lifetime.
So you start out with, for those whom he foreknew, like before the ages began, he knit us in our mother's womb, Psalm 139.
And then he predestined us to be conformed to the image of his son.
So made in God's image, completely born with the purpose of looking like both God, like being made in God's image, but then also coming to know our older brother, Jesus, that we might be the firstborn among many brothers.
And those whom he predestined, he also called.
So giving us purpose and then justifying us, declaring us righteous in his eyes through the work of Christ.
And then those whom he justified and therefore sanctified through this life, he then glorified, getting us to our eternal home, either when Jesus returns or when we go to heaven, whichever comes first.
Now, God does that.
God is the one that enacts every single part of that process.
But he does ask us of faith and he does ask us of faithfulness, knowing that for every ounce of faithfulness that he's shown to us, we see him as worth it and we're now able to pursue him.
Because he's able to save us, we're able to pursue him.
And I think that that's really, really powerful.
It's possible to fall into one of two dishes with perseverance, I feel.
Either throwing up our hands and allowing God to do the work.
Or white knuckling by our own efforts, thinking we're the ones that get the perseverance job done.
Which one do you lean toward and why?
And what brings you back toward the middle?
How does your personal pursuit of holiness help the journey?
I have definitely found myself in both of those ditches.
I think I lean more towards white knuckling.
I'm thinking of a very specific point in my life where I was at a crossroads in these two ditches.
So I started attending the Stone Inn in 2009 and had the privilege of being part of the 100 People Network as a goer.
So in 2012, packed up my whole life, said goodbye to my friends and my family for what I thought was going to be my forever.
My time overseas did not go as expected.
The team I was on experienced some intense corruption from leadership.
And God used myself and a few others on the team to call out that corruption.
While that was going on, though, I was asked a very specific question, which is, is this thing that you're going through, is it difficult or is it destructive?
Meaning, is this just something really hard that God has asked you to do and be a part of?
Or is it something that you're white knuckling your way through when God is actually asking you to let it go?
Ultimately, God ended up shutting down the team that I was on, and I had to come back stateside way sooner than I wanted to.
Completely heartbroken and very confused.
But you know what helps me get back to the middle of those two ditches is going through hard things.
It's those times of complete and utter desperation for Jesus.
Those times when I cling to his word and my prayer journal is not legible because it's covered in tears.
But you just keep going.
This is actually making me think about an article that I came across in 2015, which was a time of immense tragedy and grief for my family.
And a quote from that article has always stuck with me.
It says, read the Bible, even when it feels like eating cardboard, and pray, even when it feels like talking to a wall.
To me, that's the very definition of perseverance.
It's us throwing ourselves at the feet of Jesus while also waging war against the flesh.
It's a fight for holiness.
Indeed.
And that's really beautiful and hard.
And thank you for sharing.
Absolutely.
I think I vacillate, like you said, like between the two of passivity and overactivity.
But in the past, like several months, it's been a really difficult time of depression and disappointment and all the things.
And I think the thing that has helped me get back toward the middle or even keep going is you.
Like, I know that you know what I'm talking about.
But recently, about two months ago, I think, I'm trying to count the weeks, but it was short, not too long ago.
I was just really doing really badly.
And Louisa, for listeners, told me, I just need you to fight.
And the way that I knew who was talking, the person who was talking to me wasn't just telling me to fight, but actually saying, I'm going to fight with you and for you because I know that ultimately God is fighting for us.
And I don't know why that conversation is what, in the muck and mire of what a really difficult season has been.
But that conversation, it really did do something to me.
I keep getting the imagery of the first Creed movie where, like, Apollo and Adonis in the big fight, he gets knocked out.
Like, I mean, out hold.
And then his, like, his opponent is like, yeah, I won.
I'm Ricky Conlin.
I'm great, you know.
And he's, like, out on the floor.
And then in his, in the, on the camera, like, we see a flashback that he gets of his dad, Apollo Creed, who was, like, this really great fighter.
Research the, you know, the trope of, like, the Creed's in the Rocky series, if you want to know more.
But he gets this, this imagery of his dad and, like, how well he fought before he died.
And that, you literally see it inject life back into him.
Like, he, he literally goes, you know, and, like, completely, and, and the announcer in the fight goes, it looks like Adonis Creed is back from the dead.
I don't know what tapped into him, but he's, like, back in it, you know.
And that is what the Spirit used you to do in me and continues to do for me.
Because, man, like, it, I don't know if it's just the 30s or, you know, that's what I think it really is.
But it's hard.
Yeah.
You know, it, it is not easy enduring.
And it's, and it's impossible, this season is showing me, that it is impossible to endure alone.
Yeah.
Good stuff.
I just, I wish that listeners could see our fists just up in this conversation.
Yes.
Literally.
We, we.
Fighting for you.
For fighting in general and fighting for our friends.
No.
But legitimately, like, you, you have helped me endure and fight well.
And that's really because I see the, I, I've witnessed and been a benefactor of you fighting yourself and seeing Jesus is worth it on the other end.
And there's just a particular glory in the stories of people who have gone through hell and back and still make it to the other side, singing his praises more.
And you are one of those types of people.
Yeah.
So, is it possible, Louisa, to persevere without a pursuit of holiness?
Why or why not?
I think I'm not sure what the purpose of persevering would be in that instance.
Well.
Thoughts?
Yeah.
I, I agree.
It's like, what are you going toward?
You know what I mean?
A couple, a couple quotes from some people I really respect.
Kate Terry, our equipping and women's director at downtown, at our downtown congregation.
She says often, no one coasts toward holiness.
You know, you don't, you don't drift that way.
I would add to it.
No one drifts toward maturity.
You know?
It's a, it's a hard fought battle with our flesh, with the world to believe and embody and obey supernatural truths.
And thankfully we don't do it alone.
We have the spirit.
We have the word.
We have Jesus.
We have each other.
But it is a war.
And to, and to not treat it as such is, is foolish.
And then another person I greatly, you know, I'm going to be a part of the world.
Like you, you'll do fine.
Right.
Right.
But what about our long obedience in the same direction is supposed to be fine, you know?
And, and, and I also, I feel the need to add, like, that's for the person.
I'm kind of speaking to that person.
That's kind of like giving up, so to speak.
Like, like you just don't have the fight in you anymore as we were talking about.
Like, hey, you can, it's okay to not be okay.
And you can keep existing.
But God does not want that for you.
I don't want that for you.
And I think holiness helps remind us of just whose we are.
Because we're, we're made holy.
And we're, we're being made holy.
Hebrews 10, 10, 14 says, for by a single offering, he has perfected for all time.
Those who are being sanctified.
So we are those.
And so we, we've been perfected for all time.
But we're also being sanctified.
And it's for all time.
So there's so much like past, present, and future language in that.
But it's to show, hey, God's got you.
You're in the thick of it right now.
But God's got you.
He had you from the moment you were an idea in his mind to the moment that God made you to the moment that you will take your last breath on this earth.
He's got you.
But the journey is going to be arduous.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I think it is not possible to persevere well or in the way that I think we're called to as believers apart from an accompanying pursuit of holiness.
Because you won't, like we talked about at the very beginning, you won't want to journey toward who you're not also journeying toward being like.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, exactly.
Okay.
What dumb tax have you paid for our listeners?
In essence, what advice would you share about perseverance that we haven't covered yet today?
I think I have a couple pieces of advice, maybe.
My first piece is just going off of what we're talking about here is that sometimes you are going to have to fight for it.
Sometimes life is going to hit you so hard that you feel like you can't get back up.
And then it's going to hit you again.
Lean in.
Fight for it.
It's worth it.
He's worth it.
And he is for you.
Yeah.
I think that's kind of my first piece of advice.
Another piece of advice is one that I'm actually continually given by a very wise woman in my life, which is God knows.
Meaning it's okay if you don't.
So trust him.
Trust him with the sanctification process.
Trust that he will do it.
Trust that he is able.
God knows.
That's good.
That's good.
And I think lean into community.
Get a biblical counselor.
Yes.
Like legitimately both of us are huge proponents of Jesus and therapy.
Yes.
Because Jesus is Jesus and he made therapists.
That's right.
Also, I think it feels right to say like keep going because there will come a day.
It may not be today.
It may not be tomorrow.
It may not be for years.
It may not be till you get to glory.
But there will come a day where you will be grateful that you did not give up.
That you didn't let go.
That you didn't let go.
Because it will be on that day that you realize that he never let you go.
He never gave you up.
Believe that God is keeping you.
And last things.
The scriptures are true.
God is good.
And Jesus is coming back.
And if that's true, it's going to be all right.
You know, this brings up another question that I know is heavy.
Hmm.
What has kept you on the path when friends stop following Jesus?
How have you navigated friends walking away from the faith?
This is really hard.
Watching friends, even family, leave the faith will rip your heart out.
But first and foremost, prayer.
A seemingly simple answer.
Prayer was such a powerful tool to have direct access to the one who knows it all.
Who holds it all together.
So our response to that should be to keep trusting him with them.
Yeah.
Right?
But also don't give up on them.
Yeah.
Where possible.
Keep doing life with them.
Keep showing up.
Keep being in their corner.
But most importantly, keep praying.
Because if, and I like to say when, they return to him, they're going to need you.
Right?
And I actually am thinking of a really sweet example of this in my own family's life where someone has fairly recently returned.
And it's just been the most beautiful thing to watch and be a part of.
And just the reminder that your prayers are heard, not wasted.
And that if we are his, he's going to be faithful to complete the work in us that he started.
Thank you so much for sharing.
And you're right.
I mean, when someone returns, we're literally observing a supernatural reality.
Mm-hmm.
We're watching someone really live out that we're all on a lifelong journey.
Like, and they came out of the valley, you know?
And I think externally, yes, all of what you said.
Like, be, continue to be a Christian to that person.
Pray for them.
Intercede for them.
Be a consistent, faithful, you know, fruit of the spirits.
Love, joy, peace, be a loving, joyful, peaceful, gentle person to them.
Also, for, I would add, internally, like, for ourselves, be reminded.
Because I think of, you know, when people I followed walk away from following Jesus.
You know, when leaders fall or disqualify themselves or just renounce their faith.
I have to remember that I'm following Jesus far before I'm following that person.
That's right.
And, man, something I used to say when I did college ministry some years ago.
When I would be meeting with girls at, like, coffee shops and stuff.
I would say, like, while I'm in sound mind and of sound soul, you keep pursuing Jesus even if there comes a day where I don't.
Yeah.
And I really mean, and I mean that now.
Like, God, keep me, keep the people that are following me, keep the people that I follow.
But no matter what, if you are hearing this, you keep following him more than you follow any other finite human.
You're following the one who is infinite.
I've, I've navigated.
I don't know if this, if this kind of counts toward this.
But there's something about that, like, from 22 to 24 range to 30.
Even more than getting to, like, 18 or getting through college.
Those years have been really hard.
And I guess it's because if you've, if you've gone through high school, you've gone through college, it's, you're, you're done in so far as, like, I'm never graduating to something again necessarily.
Like, I'm done with school.
I got the piece of paper.
I'm, I'm, my life isn't structured that way.
But, like, now I'm just, like, living.
You know, does that make sense?
Yeah.
I'm just, I'm just living.
I don't know.
What do you think about that?
Yeah.
I think that can be a super tricky transition into, out of, out of high school into college, right?
Which was a zillion years ago for me.
But, and then from your kind of 30s into true adulthood.
You know, of just the daily, the daily perseverance of getting through emails, getting through laundry, all the things.
It's, it can be super just vulnerable, even.
I think you're just more vulnerable to what God is doing in your life, in your heart.
But those are also the moments where, again, we choose to lean in.
Because we've seen all throughout scripture, and we've witnessed it in our own lives and the lives of those around us, that when we go through hard things, we just look more like him on the other side.
True.
Man.
Yeah.
Like, adulthood is where you realize, like, some of it, yes, persevering through suffering.
Some of it is persevering through mundanity.
Yes.
Like, persevering through boredom.
Like, like, how do I keep going when things are just okay, you know, without trying to, like, up and move to a new city or up in whatever the thing is to, like, bring some excitement.
Like, God, help me keep the path even when it's not exciting.
You know?
Yeah.
Do you have any indicators for if and when you're not practically persevering well?
Like, what are some, like, I think of, like, if we're in a car, those kind of, like, check engine lights.
Yeah.
So when I start looking real selfish, that's definitely an indicator.
Getting in my feels, even, about how I think something should or shouldn't go is an indicator.
Because it's me looking inward.
Right?
Instead of looking, honestly, upward.
This is why community is so important.
This is why you are so important to me.
And we just have, you and I both have such incredible community through our South fam.
So you need to get friends who will call you out when you're looking selfish.
You get friends who will call you out when you're looking inward.
True.
And not only call you out in love, but also point you.
Upward.
Point you to Jesus.
Send you verses, things, encouragements.
You have, you know, you've always been really good about sending me podcasts.
Or, hey, this is something I liked from your girl, Jackie O'Perry, you know, who's an incredible encouragement to both of them.
So, yeah, I think those are indicators and it's always good to just have your community.
And, again, just gospel-centered counseling.
Highly recommend.
Indeed, indeed.
I would agree.
Like, community matters.
Having eyes on your life other than your own really helps.
Because you can't see your own face a lot of the time.
When it comes to our flesh, when it comes to our fight with our sin, it is near impossible to get a solid read on how you actually are and where you need to grow apart from other people speaking into.
And I've spoken about this with conflict resolution before, but I would probably mean in all avenues of relational life as a Christian.
Like, everybody needs loving, empathetic truth-tellers.
Yeah.
Loving, like you said, like, someone who will love you enough to do something for you but then also tell you about yourself, you know.
And then empathetic, someone who knows that you're human, knows that you will fall short, knows that they have fallen short.
And then truth-tellers, someone who won't chide away from saying the hard things.
Like, hey, I see you walking out of step with the gospel in this way.
Yeah.
And I say it because I love you and I say it because I want to see you get back on.
And Jesus wants more for you.
Like, the Lord wants more for you.
There's more out there for you, sister or brother.
And those friends, when you get them, because they are far and few and in between, you hang on to them.
And you heed their wisdom.
And that doesn't mean those things happen perfectly, you know.
I've said this multiple times on this podcast as well and in various teachings.
Henry Nowen, he said that Christian friendship is just a lifetime, a lifetime of forgiving people and being forgiven of just not being God.
I think about that so often because the moment you or I think the other person is failing them as a friend, that should be a check engine light to say, okay, how have I forgotten that this person isn't Jesus?
And what do I need to remember about me not being Jesus?
You know, like, they aren't the devil.
I'm not Jesus.
And I'm not the devil and they aren't Jesus.
Because we're both just sinful people that have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and have been called together in a specific time to love each other.
And that's messy, but it's beautiful and it's worth it.
And it's refining in such a way that on the other end of us being friends, I hope it's just the brief period when one of us dies and we go to glory and then we'll resume in heaven.
But like on the other end of our friendship, no matter how long it goes, hopefully we both will be active agents in each other's pursuit of Jesus.
So much so that it's like I'm dead set.
I am dead set on seeing you love Jesus and look more like him.
And then you are dead set on love, like on me loving Jesus and looking more like him.
And that looks like a lot of, I'm sorry.
You know, like a lot of this hurt my feelings.
A lot of, I don't understand.
A lot of get your crap together.
And I don't think I mean crap.
But like legitimately, it really means authenticity and affection and faithfulness.
Yeah, I love it.
Same.
We got one last question and it feels right to land on what makes you keep going?
What does God use to lead you to persevere?
I just can't do this without him.
You know, I know, you know, but doing this without him actually terrifies me.
And I don't mean that to sound like I'm keeping going out of fear.
But if I had to depend on me to keep going, I would be a disaster.
I deeply depend on him for my hope, my strength, my worth, my purpose, my joy.
He uses his word to hold me fast.
He uses my incredible community to hold me accountable, build me up, encourage me.
He uses my family to show me love and mainly to make me laugh.
All of these things are wonderful gifts that he has given me and he uses to help me keep going.
But in the end, it's Jesus plus nothing.
He alone is worth the striving.
I would agree.
Because he's it, you know, like.
He is.
I think he is the one when we are, you know, like I talked about earlier, that scene from Creed.
When we are just give out.
Like our souls reach this point of.
Such dryness and such a destitution.
He is the one that that the spirit recalls to mind that that, you know, whispers to us keep going.
Yeah.
You know, and he keeps us going.
You know, I think of that.
I think of a meme where it says like it's kind of like a parody on that footsteps in the sand.
Yeah.
Where it says like, these are the steps where you walked with me.
Yeah.
You and then here's.
And then these lines where the person's like asking Jesus, well, Jesus, what about these lines here?
And the Jesus is like these.
This is where I dragged you along the way.
You know, he is the one that.
No.
Yes.
Very much.
Whether he is.
He is truly.
Dragging us by the heels or we are by faith and humble obedience, taking steps toward him.
He is the one doing it all.
And he is the one that gives us the motivation to keep going because he is just that sweet.
And like you said, I just can't do this without him.
I.
He is it.
You know, like.
He's it.
And from the depths of my soul, I feel compelled to to say like to those who are struggling to persevere.
At the very base of of whatever you think.
Forget about me.
Forget about Louisa.
Forget about the like.
Remember the church.
But like, is the person and work of Jesus still compelling to you?
Is the person and work of Jesus still compelling to you?
Deep down in your heart.
And if he is.
Follow that feeling.
Follow that feeling.
That inkling.
That tiny nudge.
And.
Allow God to show you where that leads.
I don't think I have any more questions, friend.
I love it.
I love you so much.
Love you.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Always.
Literally.
Much like every other conversation you guys have heard on the topic of holiness the last several weeks.
Community is crucial.
You will not last or persevere on your own.
As brothers and sisters in Christ, we will endure by the blood of the lamb, the power of the spirit and the fellowship of the saints.
That is you and me.
Speaking of community.
Join us next time for our season finale.
Where we will get the whole band back together.
Meaning the women's team.
To do another kind of say so reflection time covering the holiness series.
And what the Lord has done.
Thank you for listening, buddies.
Talk to you soon.
Bye-bye.
We'll see you next time.