How can the experience of our own encounter with the holiness of God catalyze us to be witnesses to our friends, family, and neighbors who need Jesus?
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year we’re focussing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series we focus on holiness and our witness.
How can the experience of our own encounter with the holiness of God catalyze us to be witnesses to our friends, family, and neighbors who need Jesus? In this episode we discuss how God’s holiness both compels and enables us to tell the people in our lives about this God who is worthy of our worship. We talk about why personal holiness makes us a more reliable witness for Jesus and what this might look like in our everyday lives.
Annette Haralson, the former Equipping and Women’s Director for our North congregation, leads the discussion with two deacons from North: Jessie Daub and Lauren Fischer.
Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Women's Cast.
My name is Annette Haralson, and I am excited to have you join us for this installment of our series on holiness and how it impacts different aspects of our life.
We started with the premise that a life united with Jesus is a life in pursuit of holiness.
And this pursuit is actually an offer of freedom, of peace, of beauty, wholeness, and joy.
Since then, we have had several friends join us to talk about holiness in relation to repentance, community, freedom, loss, wholeness, and gifts.
Those have all been really great conversations, so if you missed one, I hope you will go back after this episode and listen to them.
But in this episode of our series, we will discuss how our holiness intersects with our witness to a dying world that is desperately in need of Jesus.
Now, all the way back in Isaiah 6, the prophet is given a vision of the Lord who is holy, holy, holy.
Isaiah recognizes his own sinfulness in the face of such a holy God, and he walks away from that encounter with two important things, with cleansing, but also with commissioning.
Isaiah knows he is too sinful to be in the presence of such holiness.
That's why he cries out, woe is me.
But God in his mercy cleanses Isaiah of his sin, and he makes him holy.
Then, God asks, who will be a messenger for this holy God?
And Isaiah immediately responds with, send me.
Isaiah is commissioned to go and tell others about this infinitely holy God who deserves and desires worship from all.
And he does this willingly and eagerly.
So, what can we learn from this encounter?
It's that when we have been made to see our sin and are cleansed from it, we are automatically drawn to submit to the one we were cleansed by and for.
This makes us willing servants who are sent out to gather more worshipers for him.
We are moved from woe to witness by the power of his grace.
So, just like Isaiah, we were not able to be in God's holy presence because of our sin.
But through Jesus' sacrifice at the cross, he has made a way for us to be in his presence, to be holy as he is holy.
In his holiness, we fully realize our sin and need for a savior and are cleansed.
This is what sets us apart, makes us holy by his grace to no longer live for our little kingdom, but for his kingdom and his glory.
Now, this doesn't flow from guilt, shame, or any kind of striving, but instead from a place of reverent awe of God and the humility that is produced by the grace and mercy we've received.
This is such a glorious new reality for those who have been cleansed and changed by the blood of Christ and made holy.
Now, if we wake up believing this every morning, this is going to change everything about us, from the way we live to the way we interact with those around us.
Seeing God in the splendor of holiness highlights our lack of holiness, yes, compared to him.
But it leads us to a posture of gratitude for being cleansed.
Seeing God in the splendor of his holiness makes us desire for him to be worshipped rightly by us and by others.
We know what he demands and we know what he deserves.
But, as we talked about in our first podcast from this series, holiness is not something that our secular culture finds attractive.
A lot of times it is the very thing that makes us seem hypocritical or holier than thou to the world.
So, how can we be holy and be effective witnesses in our world?
As people who have been moved from woe to witness by the power of his grace, what should our posture be?
That's the question we are going to be unpacking today.
And to help me do that, I've got two of my absolute favorite people with me today from my North congregation.
I have Lauren Fisher and Jessie Dobb, and I cannot wait for you to meet them.
So, Lauren, Jessie, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about yourselves, about your background, about your life right now, so our women can get to know you.
Hi, I'm Jessie Daub.
I am wife to Alex, and we are partners and service deacons at North.
I am a mom to four kiddos that I also homeschool.
So, that wraps up a lot of what my life is right now.
I live a very special but very mundane everyday life with my kiddos, and I love that.
Things that I love, I love being outside.
And part of what our homeschool life is like is outside.
And I am reteaching myself how to play the piano.
So, that is something fun of what my life looks like right now.
Hi, I am Lauren.
I am also a deacon at North.
I am the wife to Dave.
We've been married for 12 years.
I have two incredible, crazy, wonderful kids.
And my husband, Dave, and I actually run a business together.
So, that takes up a significant amount of my time.
I, in terms of hobbies and just who I am and where I spend my time, when we can, Dave and I are also big two-steppers.
So, we love to go two-stepping.
That happens much less now that we have a four-year-old and 18-month-old.
But when we can wrangle babysitting time, we try to do that a lot, too.
Fun fact.
Dave and Lauren taught me how to two-step at a North event way back in the day.
They are awesome.
That's a throwback.
We did that a long time ago.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
It was great.
Yeah.
Super fun.
Well, ladies, I'm so glad that y'all are here.
I wanted to invite y'all on to this podcast to talk about it because I think of all the people that I know, you two really came to mind when I thought about people who actually live a life and speak in a way that is consistent.
Just across all different environments that I've ever seen you in.
And you live a life where you really are trying to show that you are set apart, that you've been set apart by Jesus and you want others to know that in the way that you live and the way that you speak.
So as we are getting into this conversation and thinking about what it means to actually be a witness, since that's the topic of our discussion, I just thought we'd start off by talking about what are, what actually pops into your head when you first think about the word witness.
Yes.
Having happened.
Yeah.
Having been true in my life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
I go straight to the courtroom also.
I think that's like our natural inclination.
I think of like a record, like it's on record and it's kept.
But same, I try to like, okay, dig in a little bit more.
What does the word witness mean?
And just thinking like plain Webster dictionaries, like seeing something or knowledge of an event that you've ever observed.
And like the truth and the integrity and that really matters.
And so same, like if we're thinking of like us witnessing to the world, we have observed or have knowledge that we therefore get to share.
Yeah.
When we witness, whether with our life or with our words.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was thinking about this word, there's this movie that's, oh gosh, it's well over a decade old.
I can't even remember the title of it, but it's about this married couple where one of them like starts taking dancing lessons.
Throughout the movie, you realize that they're just having marital problems.
And one, the wife of the couple says this line that has always stuck with me.
She says, we all need a witness to our lives.
And I loved that line because for me, when I heard that, that, that word witness, it just means somebody who's willing to like know us.
And, and like testify about who we are in such a way where it makes us feel like known and seen.
And that always resonated with me because I like to think about it in terms of, am I being that kind of a person for other people?
Like actually seeing them and knowing them in such a way that way that makes them feel seen and known.
So, yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of different ways that we can think about the word witness.
Definitely the ones that y'all are highlighting about the, like the official witness in like a court proceeding, I think is a natural one that we think about.
Lauren, you said that you've actually been a witness.
What was that like?
It was, I was 16 or 17.
And we had, so in high school, we had off-campus lunch, which meant like you, everyone got in their cars and went.
And you can imagine like a bunch of teenagers scattering from the same parking lot at the same time was absolute chaos.
And so we had just gotten out and there was a wreck.
I was a passenger in the car and there was a wreck that from our perspective was not the driver's fault.
And it became this like, he said, she said battle.
And it was myself and another student that I didn't know who witnessed it from afar.
And we both stood up and were like asked to witness at this court trial to see whose fault it was.
And our stories lined up and we both said like basically the same thing.
And pretty much the conclusion was, oh, they're teenagers, they're covering for one another.
And so our side kind of lost the case because even though our witness was true, just the inherent, your teenagers, you're covering for each other kind of usurped that.
Yeah, there was, like you were saying, there was truth and there was integrity.
But so that's always stuck with me.
It's like, man, we were right.
That does kind of beg the question.
I mean, what do you think are some of the characteristics that make a good witness?
Because obviously they didn't think that y'all were a good witness.
You would definitely disagree with that.
What do you think are some of the characteristics that people are looking for in a reliable witness?
I would say, I keep going back to the word that you used of integrity.
There's integrity to what is being said.
And I think for this example, there was something out of my control.
I could not control that I was 17 at the time.
I could not control that somebody wasn't going to believe me no matter what, because there was a reputation that was part of my age that I could have overcome.
But I think past that, there's something to be said for your actions lining up with your words.
You know, we say, it's very cliche, but we say actions speak louder than words.
And so for a witness to have integrity and for a witness to be believable, there's a level of integrity to how they carry themselves in how their actions are and their words are lining up or not lining up.
Yeah.
I think another thought is just like how when you're witnessing, you're representing or standing for someone or the event that you witness.
So I think like knowledge of what you're standing for or representing is really important.
Integrity, being not like swayed by people or thoughts around you, like being solid and not swayed by emotions.
Or I'm an emotional person.
So I think about that, like often I have to be like, OK, what is truth that my emotions are telling me?
So I think in a lot of things that we witness or represent, there's emotions in that.
And so I'm being able to like know our emotions and know where truth is in those things, what they're revealing.
Yeah. And maybe consensus, too.
Like when you're when someone's trying to build a case, as we're still on like the court trial example, the more eyewitnesses you have, the more people saying the same thing.
Yeah.
The more likely it is that it's believable.
Because when it's one person, it's just one person's word.
But when you have multiple people who are saying, no, this is how it is and this is what happened, that that collective witness together creates even more credibility to it.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, on the flip side, do you think that there's anything that would make a bad witness that would disqualify somebody from being a witness other than there is somebody thinking they're too young?
I mean, I was thinking in terms of like the quote that I said about being a witness of somebody's life.
I mean, if you didn't actually know things about what you were talking about, if you didn't actually, you weren't an observant person and able to, you know, even give just the most basic of informations because you weren't paying attention.
I could definitely see how that would make somebody a bad witness.
Yeah.
Anything else?
I mean, I think just like character flaws, you know, like I think we can twist things that just aren't playing truthful.
So I think character, the opposite of integrity, right?
The opposite of standing for truth.
I think all those things matter because I know that there's false witnesses, you know?
So just those opposite traits would make a bad witness.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
So what relationship do you think there is then between holiness and being a witness for Jesus?
I mean, how can these two things be compatible when we're trying to reach a world that oftentimes you use holiness as like a negative thing, like a self-righteous sort of thing or that holier-than-thou sort of thing?
When we're talking about being a witness for Jesus, is there a way that some of these things that we can be, have been talking about regarding being a good witness, is there some of those that can actually help us be a more effective witness for Jesus?
Yeah, I think in a word, it's everything.
There's a beautiful and an undeniable intertwining between our pursuit of holiness and our witness of who Jesus is.
Because, and it goes back to kind of what I was saying earlier of actions speak louder than words, but the words matter too.
And this is something that you kind of touched on in your intro is, I think a lot of people when we, especially if you grew up in the church, you're familiar with scripture, a lot of when we think of holiness in scripture, it's be holy for I am holy.
And most people know that is from 1 Peter 1, 16.
But he's actually quoting in Leviticus when the Lord goes to Moses and has him command to the nation of Israel to be holy and to be set apart.
And he lays out what a life of holiness looks like for them.
And so that's kind of the context that Peter is looking at there.
But if you back up and go earlier in the chapter, how he starts it out and the framework he uses and the way he kind of underpins all of this is when he's saying be holy, he starts with make sure your conduct is founded on your hope and the grace that is ultimately in Jesus.
So the two are fully intertwined.
And it's kind of two pronged in the sense that, and the women's team set it up so well in the first episode, is that the pursuit of holiness is where you're going to find true joy because there's no better outcome for our souls.
There's no better outcome for our lives than to pursue the holiness that's founded on the work of Jesus. And our holiness is a really good barometer for where that hope is found.
So it's if we're going to say and if we want to witness to the world true joy is found in Jesus and these other areas that you're looking at are going to be like woefully disappointing, that matters in how you're living your life. Are you pursuing Jesus?
So to say another, I would just say our pursuit of holiness bears witness to what we believe about Jesus and whether or not we believe and have hope in the grace that is promised to us through him.
And it is hard because there's that tension where sometimes people think of holiness as like the humdrum, denying yourself, like not getting to have any fun kind of thing because you're a Christian. But what the witness is supposed to show people is what you're looking for. Your pursuit of all of these things of joy, of peace, of abundance, of a fulfilled life is going to come through the pursuit of holiness. But if we're not doing that, then that's kind of where the witness falls apart to say your actions and your words are not lining up here.
I have lots of thoughts on this question, but so my thoughts might not be organized and might go back.
But this is what I'm going to start with and see. When I think of God's holiness and how it relates to being a witness to being a witness for Jesus, I think I have to be sitting with Jesus. I have to know him and love him and listen to him and abide with him. And I have to believe the gospel for myself.
I have to have the ability and time in my life carved out like Isaiah had with seeing the throne room.
What a sweet vision, obviously, from the Lord. But I need to have moments in my life where I am actually treasuring Jesus in that way where I see his holiness and how he is holy, holy, holy, Lord God almighty.
And I am not. And even sitting and thinking about God's holiness this past week has led me to a place where I'm like, who am I to go in and talk about God's holiness like it's too rich to hold.
It's too weighty to even try to talk about. But the reality is that because of Jesus's blood, we get to not just come close.
We get to run with confidence in to his throne room and to be received by a holy God.
And those stand like I don't even know how to reconcile those in my words, that that is the reality of the good news of Jesus is that I get to be a sinner set free and to run and let it all go and to run to Jesus with confidence that he's going to receive me, even though he is holy.
And by his blood, like I wasn't bought with anything that's perishable. I was bought by his blood that's imperishable and it will not fade. That will last forever.
I am no matter. I think why it's so hard to sit in the weightiness of him being holy is that I know that I am not like if I look at my day, even though scripture says like in Colossians that I am a chosen people, holy and dearly loved.
Like that's how he sees me. And that is true. But it's an already not yet. So, yes, I'm already seen as holy, but I am also not yet holy today.
I have things I have struggled with walking into the space.
I was impatient with my printer and my kids like literally walking out the door here as they're trying to print coloring pictures and it's not working.
And I'm impatient and I'm impatient and I'm grumbling and I'm complaining. Like there's constantly things that the Lord is going to work out in my life that makes me realize I am not I am not holy.
But I am covered by his blood and it is precious and it is costly. Like for me to be made holy, the sacrifice was costly.
And it's not I think of like what you were talking about earlier in your intro and about like it's not from a place of striving.
And it is from a place of holding that tension of he is holy and I am not.
But I get to run and be received by a holy God and I am covered and I'm washed clean.
And he sees me as holy and righteous because of Jesus.
That is the place that I want to witness from.
But if I'm not sitting in that space and I'm not preaching the gospel to myself and if I'm not in community and in his word and praying, that is not what I'm going to witness.
At least not for me in my own life.
That is not what flows.
I witness to other things or I pick up things from the world or other distractions or noise.
And so I think of God's holiness is like I have I have to treasure it first before it can before I can ever witness to that reality.
Yeah.
It almost makes me think I want to rephrase that quote that I made to we don't need a witness to our lives.
We need to be a witness to his life.
Yeah.
And then allow things to flow from that.
It's beautiful, Jesse.
I love that.
I love the way you said to treasure like it starts with a treasuring of his holiness.
And the whole time you were talking, I was thinking about the curtain being split.
Yeah.
At the end of the crucifixion where the holy of holies was no longer kept from us.
And just the the imagery you use of a witness towards Jesus and his holiness is not going to flow if we don't treasure that.
And we don't understand the price and the costliness of it for ourselves.
It's not going to flow out in a witness to anybody else.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, yeah, we I mean, you all just talked about how our witness flows out of us in many ways.
And that makes me think of that saying that gets tossed around a lot.
Preach the gospel at all times.
Use words if necessary.
Do you think that that's valid to what we've been talking about right now?
And do you think that's even something that the Bible supports?
I think I remember I remember the first time I ever heard somebody say this.
And at first and again, I was a teenager.
And at first my thought was like, oh, sweet.
I don't have to say anything because I have I've struggled in my life with walking out in faith in sharing the gospel in joyful devotion to use some of our 2030 vision language.
And it's more been begrudging devotion of I'm doing this because I'm supposed to.
But it feels awkward and there's tension.
And it's it's hard because there's so much in my flesh and in the flesh and in the sin of the person across from me that's fighting against any sort of gospel conversation.
So when I first heard it, there was a sinful response of just like, OK, great.
I don't really have to do this.
But and I think what people in very well-meaning ways are trying to say is if your actions do not line up with what you're saying, it doesn't really compute.
And it's it might even do more harm than good, but it's certainly not less than that to have actions and lives that show the gospel.
But scripture is clear that it's more than that.
Like we can even look at Romans where Paul is very clear.
How then can they call on him that have not believed?
How can they believe without hearing about him?
How can they hear without a preacher?
And how can they preach unless they are set as it is written?
How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news?
So.
There is a an inherent problem if a witness's actions.
And in our case, if there is not the love and the treasure of his holiness and his grace for us, like you were talking about, Jesse, then the witness is going to fall flat.
But we are called and we are designed to communicate with words like we're doing right now.
And that's part of what we are designed and called to do in a witness.
And so it's not solely how we live, but it's not less than that.
Yeah.
I mean, I think our fruit is for sure something that you look at when we talk about like preaching the gospel.
When I believe in believing the gospel, then there will be fruit in my life, by the way, that I choose to act or to order my life.
It's going to be more centered around him.
But I do think that when I'm thinking of witness, I was brought back.
This question took me back to before I was saved.
I wasn't I was not I didn't I knew some foundational things about Jesus as a kid.
And I what I would say I was brought up in is I grew up in a very works based faith and religion and tradition.
And so I this God being holy and being set apart and me not having to strive to to earn salvation, but to be freely given the gift of grace and for his payment for my sins was was what drew me like freed me from my own striving.
And so I was having to double click on some of the thoughts of like holiness, not being attractive to the world.
And there were there are for sure things that I was living for myself and doing things that were not holy by any means.
But they came out of a of a place.
I was still living in a way that was like my my own moral code in my my own way of right living.
And it was coming from a place of like wanting approval or wanting, I don't know, achievements.
It was very works based, very moral.
So in some ways you could look at my life and see fruit or good things in my life.
But they were all from striving and all from trying to earn something.
Even though I had no faith in God or Jesus at the time, I still had that in my life.
And I think that that is true for those that don't know Christ, even if they're not trying to live rightly for him.
There are still in ways in which people try to live right.
And so I think that in some ways are just doing actions.
Yes, it's our fruit.
But at the same time, like our actions and our words have to go together, because I think sometimes we can still look at the world and see a nonbeliever living and doing things that are wonderful.
But they they aren't abiding in him and they aren't coming from him.
And so in John 15, that's what he tells us, like, apart from him, we can do no good thing.
And so apart from him in my life, I can do no good thing.
That's right.
So, like, I want my I want to preach the gospel with my actions at all times.
But just like in first Peter, I need to be ready to give an answer for the hope that I have.
Yeah.
And so I for me in my own life, I like think back to a time where there was immense like my faith was rocked when we first moved here.
And Alex was diagnosed with cancer.
I mean, we left everything behind.
And within two weeks, he is at doctors and oncology offices and we are being diagnosed with cancer.
I remember sitting in a chair right next to him, just like I'm sitting in now and him looking at me and asking, like, what is that big word?
The doctor just said and me having to like, that's cancer.
And just realize, like, in that moment, our life was forever changed in just that circumstantial way.
And I think God does that in our lives in lots of different ways of using our circumstances to refine our hearts and to really show us where our shifty sand is and where our life is built on him and him alone.
So I think that was a season in my life that I can look back.
He did so many things in that time.
Like, I am not the same because of that season in my life.
But one thing I know for sure he did in my life is he taught me what it looks and feels like to only have him and him alone and that he is my greatest treasure.
And so therefore, like, I was, yes, I mean, sin was no longer attractive.
Like, I was just like, no, I'm saying no.
Like, just eternity was what I was longing for.
Like, seeing his face was what I was longing for and desperately needing him each and every moment and every day to get through.
But also the same reality is I, like, no longer, not that I was, like, abrasive in sharing, but it was this beautiful opportunity.
I wouldn't say I'm surrounded by believers in my life.
It's something that I would love to see my family and friends that I've loved dearly since I wasn't saved from a young age, like, to come to know Jesus.
This was a season in my life where my actions, by his grace and his power alone, also got to line up with my words.
And I got to share why we could have hope and why we could have faith and why we could still live set apart and in the way in which God says is best for us when our circumstances shows that we shouldn't be able to do that.
And so that is a season that I know and my family has even, like, spoken to us that, like, we know it's by your faith and by him holding you that has brought you through that season.
Wow.
And so that is a prayer of mine still, that, like, the fruits of that would continue to grow in my family to see Jesus in all that we do.
Yeah.
I mean, what you're saying, Jesse, is making me think back to as we were trying to decide what characteristics of a good witness we could be and integrity.
Lauren was one of the ones that you put, when your life and what you're clinging to is lining up with the words that you were speaking to everybody about what is sustaining you, that's integrity.
And I think that's a really great illustration of why this phrase that gets, or this saying that gets tossed out needs to be tweaked because it's not only that we could use words if necessary, it's that they are necessary because they actually, like, have that integrity with the way that our lives are lining up and what our words are saying.
Yeah, that's amazing.
And I think that a lot of times that we forget that when people are looking at us and they're actually watching our lives and being around us, they are looking for our words lining up with the way that we're living our lives.
And if that's not, then going back to that definition of a bad witness, it's not, you know, we all fall short.
We'll never be a perfect witness for the Lord.
But I think it's important for us to recognize that if our own way of living in the world is not lining up with the way that we're telling everybody is the best way, is the most attractive way, centered on Jesus is where we will find our biggest fulfillment.
If those things are not lining up, then how can we actually be an effective witness?
And I know we're talking mainly about witnessing to the world and to people who don't yet believe, but I've heard you talk about this probably three or four times now.
And every single time my heart is prompted to worship, my spirit is prompted to thankfulness to who God is and how he brought you guys through that.
And the beauty and how your love for him and your worship of him is deeper because of it.
And so even, and I know there's going to be another episode about community, but even in witnessing to one another and in spurring one another on in holiness and in clinging to Jesus and in having a right understanding of the treasure that we have in him.
Hearing those things from our sisters and our brothers is, is so important as well.
So we're, it's not, it's not just the world that we're witnessing to, even though we are absolutely called to do that.
It's also one another within the church in order to encourage.
And I just, I mean, no one can tell, I have a massive smile on my face just because I love, I love that that is such a deep and incredible part of, of your story and getting to hear it is, is a blessing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Lauren, at the beginning of our episode, you were talking about your experience as a witness and how you were not believed and how that was not a really great feeling.
The thing is, I mean, as we have talked about before in previous episodes and a little bit in this one, when we are talking about holiness, that's not something that is very attractive to the world.
And we also know both from experience and from scripture that even the message of the gospel is not attractive to a dying world.
It is for us, it is that pleasing aroma, but for others, it is the aroma of death.
So what is it like to be someone who is all bought into this message of the gospel, this life living in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but then to declare that by our lives and by our words to someone and have them reject it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think there's, there's a reason that Jesus said, well, they're not rejecting you.
They're rejecting me because he knew and knows that this is, is a reality of for, like he said, for as much as it is a pleasing aroma to us.
And for as much as we believe and love Jesus because he has revealed himself to us, there will be rejection.
There will be times that our witness, no matter how true, no matter with how much integrity, is going to be rejected in the hard part.
Like in my story, I was rejected for something I couldn't control.
It was my age.
I couldn't control how old I was.
I was just when I was born.
But in, in this situation, it is, it's different because it's something we believe wholeheartedly and striving for holiness and to see that rejected.
And that's, that's why these conversations can be so hard and why sometimes when I'm sharing the gospel, I can feel clumsy and I, and I can feel like, man, they are not interested in this at all.
And I, I have to, I have to accept that that's the reality of what it means to be a witness in a broken world.
And to know that just like at one point I was dead in my sin and I did not believe, and it took the miraculous grace and forgiveness of the Lord to make that happen.
There are people who are still in that and part of living as a witness to the glory and the goodness of God is to understand that there will be rejection.
Yeah.
Just listening to the both of you describe how there are costs to our witness and that take heart, you're going to have trouble in this world and we're going to be rejected because he was rejected.
I have been a witness, but it wasn't a courtroom.
I was asked to and given the opportunity to witness to some hard things that I experienced within an organization that I love and care deeply for.
And some of these things happened to me and some of them were things that were happening to other people.
And so in that, I, I, there was cost and there was a lot of pain and there was a lot of hurt in that rejection.
And in like having to kind of pull away from that community and to be cut off from people that I love dearly.
A lot of times the people were witnessing to, I don't even know if we like touched on that are people we love really dearly.
They're not just a dying world out there.
Like I love these people dearly.
And I want them to know the hope that they have in Jesus.
I don't want them to stay dead in their sins.
Like I want them to be brought to life and to see the hope that they have in Jesus.
It's not my work to do.
It's his, but I, there is a cost in sharing in my own life.
Like, yeah, it does hurt.
It hurts to be rejected.
I don't want to be rejected.
But there's a, there's a greater loss that if I don't share, if I'm not willing to move through that rejection, like there is a life and there is a soul that doesn't know Jesus.
And that doesn't have eternity waiting for them with him.
They will not see him face to face in the same way that I will.
And so I, there is like a cost for me.
Yes, I don't want to experience rejection, but I also don't want this person that I love dearly or who I don't even know.
I'm like, I need to realize that this person is an image bearer of, of our creator.
And he is someone that God cares dearly for.
So wherever, whether it's a stranger or someone I love dearly, like I should care about that person enough to move through the possibility of being rejected.
But I also, in that same season, realized that in the rejection and in that pain, I was so safe and so secure and so held by him and so seen by him.
There was nothing that occurred in that season that I, that I know didn't move through his loving hand for me.
I know that he tenderly was with me in every moment that was hard.
And so I know that there's people that I minister to in my life and witness to that are really hard.
But in that same way, like I can trust that as I step out in faith and share and know that there may be costs or there may be rejection, like I can know that he's going to hold me tenderly in those spaces too.
And then I can see fruit later down the road.
Like I, it may be, I think a witness can be like a one-time thing.
Like in that season, I'm talking about where I witnessed, there were a few different like Zoom calls or meetings or things that I did where I'm like witnessing in these small little moments and get to tell the truth in those small moments.
But then a lot of time our witness is ongoing.
It's not just one time, like it's an ongoing theme.
So I think to know that like I may face rejection this one time with this one person and this may be really hard.
But a year from now, a decade from now, like I may be getting a phone call from this person asking me about Jesus.
Just to know that like it's a long game.
Like, yeah, there's, there's pain and there's hardship, but it's, it's where I want to get these people.
And me, I want to make it to Jesus and see him face to face.
Yeah.
So it's worth the cost.
Absolutely.
So important for us to remember why, why it is that we're witnessing to these people.
We want them beside us when we are in eternity sitting at his, in his throne or standing in his throne room.
Yeah.
Holy, holy, holy.
I have actually felt like both of y'all have just been representatives of what it's like to be a witness for him in both word and deed.
But that actually makes me wonder, do either of you think that you have the gift of evangelism?
Absolutely not.
No.
So, I mean, I'm sure we all know that there are people out there who they just effortlessly share the gospel and could probably say, raise their hand and go, yes, I have the spiritual gift of evangelism.
But I don't have the spiritual gift of evangelism.
And I do think, like you were saying, Lauren, at the very beginning, that I sometimes struggle to know what to say to people.
So how do you think an understanding of our relation, this relationship between holiness and our witness can help both that person who feels like they do have the gift of evangelism and people like us who don't feel like we have the gift of evangelism?
I think first, just to realize the reality is by his Holy Spirit, like if his word is going to go forth, it's going to accomplish what he has purpose for it.
And so I might not consider, like I really boldly can confidently be like, yes, evangelism is not my, it's not where God would probably choose to put me.
But he could use me in whichever way that he would see fit.
And we are all, yes, maybe strongly gifted more in other areas, but I can preach the gospel.
Like that is his command as he leaves the disciples is to go there for and to make disciples.
And part of that is, is sharing, is proclaiming the gospel, the good news.
And so I think that that gives me confidence, that the confidence is not in me.
It's not in what I can do.
I mean, that's what makes it a supernatural gift.
A spiritual gift is that it's, it's putting my confidence in him and him alone, that he has the power to save and that it's his good news.
And so like, I get to be a willing vessel in whatever way that God wants to use me.
I mean, to be honest, Annette, like sitting here is me being like, okay, God, I'm a willing vessel, however you want to use me.
But not my life, what I would normally sign up for.
And so I think that that is, is part of it is realizing he loves you and cares for you.
And it's by his power that we move and have our being like, and it's his breath in our lungs.
And so I think that's my first advice, whether it's advice, I don't know if you'd call it that.
But for someone who feels that is their gifting or someone that's not, it's, it's, it's neither one of those people's responsibility to like go and not responsibility is not the right word, but it's not those people.
It's not their weight to carry, to like go and proclaim the gospel and to share the good news and to evangelize.
It is, it's God's work to be done.
And we just get to be willing, obedient servants.
And so I think my big thing is that all of that comes from a place of knowledge.
Like we're talking about, like, I know the gospel.
I believe the gospel.
I'm preaching it to myself.
Like I'm meditating on it myself.
And I know in my life, you know, I don't say I'm, I, you would not find me one that is naturally sharing.
But what I have seen in my life is, as I'm walking with him and abiding with him, I can't but help share the good news of Jesus because it's my only hope.
It's the only thing I have to share.
Like that's just one season that I shared.
That's like clearly obvious how much I needed Jesus in my life was when Alex was diagnosed with cancer and I had two little kids.
But that same reality that I felt that day and that season, how desperate I was, I'm still that desperate today for, for the gospel.
And so I need to wake up knowing who God is and that he is set apart and he has chosen me by his precious blood, his only son, Jesus.
And so therefore I am set apart.
And so I get to preach the gospel to myself that morning.
And then I have the ability to have like open eyes and open hands and to be a willing servant to whatever he has for my day to share the gospel.
And sometimes that's by actions and sometimes that's by word.
But I do think it is important.
And that's something I'm like asking the Lord to grow in me, like actually share why I have hope in this.
Don't let the moment pass by where someone speaks into that or ask a question like, no, I want to actually proclaim the gospel in these conversations and to speak the name of Jesus.
Man, that was very good.
That was very good.
I think, I don't think I could say it better.
I think the only thing I would add is especially for the women like us who don't feel that specific spiritual gifting.
And yet we still know that everybody is called to make disciples and go forth and share the gospel and proclaim, proclaim the Lord to, to the world.
And remembering that whether it is the ministry of parenthood with your kids or the ministry in your workplace or whatever that looks like for you.
So wherever you find yourself, whatever callings that he has put on your life, whether in your families, in your friendships, in your relationships, in your workplace, he has you there.
And this is said very often, so it can feel cliche, but he has all of us in these contexts for a reason.
And part of that reason is to proclaim both in our actions and in our words, the goodness of the gospel.
And I know there are, I can think back specifically to certain coworkers that I've had.
And I know I'm the only believer that they had contact with for a prolonged period of time.
And there were times where I would allow that in sin and in arrogance and pride and excuses to keep me from saying something.
Because I'm like, oh, what if I say something wrong?
What if I do this clumsily?
What if I'm not super eloquent in what I say?
But it goes back to it's, it's not my job to carry out the weightiness and the responsibility of knowing the Lord.
That is only the Spirit's work to do.
But I am called as his daughter and as his follower to be in whatever context I find myself sharing and witnessing to that end.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think in my own life, I mean, what I have seen is the people who normally have like the ready words of being able to preach the gospel.
Well, I'm thinking back to when I was like just new to the faith.
Well, like, I mean, I came to faith when I was a kid, but really I didn't make my faith my own until I was probably 23.
And around that time, God had placed some people in my life.
And some of them were really, really vocal and able to share the gospel.
And some were like living out the gospel.
And then I had this one woman in my life who was doing both and doing it with the kind of integrity that we talked about.
And I actually do think that she had the gift of evangelism.
I really do because there were ways that she could explain the gospel that I had never heard anybody be able to explain it that well, that succinctly.
But she lived the gospel as well.
And so I do remember other people in my life at that time who I think probably had the gift of evangelism and they were really eloquent.
But I just didn't see that kind of thing in their life.
And so I love that we've kind of, you know, we've talked to that woman who maybe thinks that she doesn't have the gift of evangelism.
Her life can be something that really does speak it as well as her words.
But I think also what we need to remember is that if you do have the gift of evangelism, make sure that your actions are lining up as well.
And because those seem to, as what we've been talking about in how we live our own lives, but then also in the people that we've seen, those are the things when we find that meshing of both of those things together seem to have the largest impact.
Yeah, listening to you just now, and that makes me think back to people in my college age life that were walking out the gospel.
I knew them prior to them being saved too.
So like I knew what their life was like prior and the reason why we were still attracted to them, like in relationship and keeping our relationship is because we saw that change.
You saw that shift.
Like Alex and I both have people in our life that we look back and we like had to ask them like, hey, this is different about you.
Why is this different?
But it was them continuing to be patient and kind and live their life as God has called them to live their life worthy of the calling that he's given them.
And then also they were ready, but they were always humble and they were always just full of mercy towards us, even though we were still living dead in our sins because they knew the gospel themselves.
Like you're saying, like they were dead in their sins and made a life by Christ, called out of darkness into a marvelous light.
And so preaching the gospel, sharing the good news, like has to come from that space ourself.
And I'm thankful for the people in my life that have humbly walked out the gospel by action, but then also could like preach that to us when we were asking why, why are there changes in your life?
And why have you chosen to live your life this way when you were living it that way?
Yeah, I think that's a great reminder for us to realize is because maybe in this talk about holiness, there might be some women that are out there thinking, well, I've sinned way too much.
My life is, doesn't look what like holiness should look.
But I think what you're saying, Jesse, is holiness is that set apartness.
And part of that is that repentance and confession talked about in a previous episode, that that's living out what the truth of the gospel is.
And that's the ability to be a witness, because holiness is not something that's when we're talking about in relationship to our behavior.
It's not something that's black and white one day, you know, and then another, but it's something that we're having to progress in.
And confession and repentance is wonderful witness that that's what's happening in our lives.
And that that's actually something that's available to other people when they find themselves in recognizing their unholiness and comparison in the face of a holy God, the way Isaiah did.
I think one thing that was said to me when I was younger, when I would struggle with, no, I've sinned too much.
I've I've failed too many times.
And it's the beauty and the good news of the gospels that every single person has sinned too much.
Every single person has failed too many times.
But that's the good news of the gospel that we have.
And it's because of Jesus that we have all sinned too much.
We have all failed too many times in relation to the holiest God.
And because of that, we were bought with something that was not perishable, like you said, that we were bought with the perfect blood of Jesus.
And that that's the point of this witness that we have is, yes, I failed.
Yes, I am completely wretched without him.
And I believe that he has saved me by the power of his blood.
And I witness and strive for this holiness because I believe he is good and he has good things for me.
And it has nothing to do with my goodness.
It's all his goodness.
Well, I think that's a great place for us to leave this conversation for now.
Thank you so much, Lauren and Jesse.
I love that all of our friends listening got to learn from your experience and your wisdom today.
I know I did too.
And we are all just still figuring this out as we go along and just realizing that as he is growing us in our progressive holiness, that we are growing in our desire and our ability to be witnesses for him.
So I appreciate your vulnerability and also your insight on how to be sinners who are saved by grace and called to share the good news with others.
Friends, don't want you to forget that we are not done with this series, though.
We have another episode that will drop soon.
The amazing Persia Gambles from our South Congregation team will be hosting a conversation around holiness and perseverance.
So if you have heard Persia speak at any of our Austin Stone events, or if you've listened to her on our other podcasts, you know you are in for some serious doctrine, but also some serious laughter.
You will not want to miss that episode.
So thanks for listening today, and we will see you next time.
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