The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year we’re focussing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series we focus on holiness and freedom.
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year we’re focussing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series we focus on holiness and freedom. In this episode, Julie Kotulek (St. John Connections Director) sits down with two Downtown partners, Amy Hester and Lauren King for a conversation about the freedom that we have in Christ and how it's crucial in our pursuit of holiness.
Resources Mentioned In Episode:
Julie Kotulek (00:00:05):
Hi friends. Welcome back to the Women's Cast. I'm Julie Kotulek. I served as our central women's ministry program coordinator. I'm a partner at St. John, and now I'm serving as the connections director there. And I get the joy of being your host for the fourth episode of our Holiness Series, A conversation on freedom. There isn't a single human on this earth who doesn't deeply desire to be free, free to make our own choices, free to say what we're thinking, free to do what we want, free to be who we truly are. I don't have to look much further than my own heart to see that freedom is of high value to the human experience. There is something almost instinctual to us that seeks freedom. But oftentimes what we think freedom is isn't actually freedom at all. I think if we're really honest with ourselves, we often equate freedom with being able to do whatever we want and be whomever we want to be at.
(00:00:54):
The root is a desire to flourish that is good and right, and in fact comes from how God created us. But we have to acknowledge that the natural reflexes and bend of our hearts doesn't always lead to our flourishing and the flourishing of those around us. As we form a definition of freedom, we have to acknowledge the effects of sin on our desires and the motivations that drive us because of sin. We have an appetite for things that feel good in moments but aren't best for us. What feels good to the flesh is rarely within the realm of abundant flourishing that God intends for us and what we're ultimately after ourselves. And when we follow every desire of our heart as a means to experience freedom, we are actually in slavery to our sinful desires. Scripture has a lot to say about the state of our hearts and bondage to sin.
(00:01:39):
So to share a few, Jeremiah 17, nine says, the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Romans 3 23 says, for all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God. In John 8 34, Jesus says, truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. All throughout God's word, we see a clear tie between following the sinful nature of our hearts and the destruction that comes from being a slave to sin. And scripture claims that not one of us is exempt as much as sin in the enemy will try to convince us otherwise. Being free to do what our flesh wants is about as far from freedom as we can get. Because left to ourselves, we are mastered by sin and deceived into thinking that it's what we desire most. But in Christ, this isn't the end of the story.
(00:02:27):
In Ezekiel 36 26, we find this promise and I will give you a new heart and a new spirit I will put within you. And I'll remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Romans eight, one through four, proclaims, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus. From the law of sin and death for God has done what the law weakened by the flesh could not do by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh. And for sin, he condemns sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, set their minds on things of the spirit.
(00:03:14):
True freedom. Biblical freedom is being granted. The freedom from the judgment of sin and the power of sin. True freedom is being given a new heart with new desires and motives that bend toward the desire of the heart of God in Christ. God hasn't just freed us from sin into some sort of neutral position. He has freed us into increasingly abundant, flourishing by the help of his spirit. From now and into eternity. We have new hearts in Christ with the ability to choose a different and better way by the power of the Holy Spirit. That's freedom. Romans 6 22 affirms. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. And the result is eternal life. The freedom that we have in Christ is the ground in which our pursuit of holiness stands on.
(00:04:03):
Without our freedom in Christ, we remain slaves to sin without the ability to even choose the way of holiness. What a sweet gift we have in Christ. Alright, y'all have heard enough from me in my monologue. I'm so excited to get to the best part of this conversation. And that's my friends. Um, and today I'm joined by exactly that. Two dear friends of mine, Amy Hester and Lauren King. Um, I think some like helpful context to these relationships, um, before I kick it to them, is that we have been in mc together for four years. Uh, and before that our mc was an A STP cohort. And so it is safe to say that we have walked a lot of life and covered a lot of ground in the pursuit of holiness. So without further ado, Amy, will you introduce yourself? Um, give us your name, congregation, and something good that happened this week.
Amy Hester (00:04:55):
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's so fun to be here. My name is Amy Hester. I am a partner at downtown and I have been there for about five years now, which is just wild to think that, I mean, even as you were saying Julie, that like the three of us have been in community for that long, that feels like such a sweet gift that I don't often hear are like people's experience to be in the same community with the same people going really strong for that long. So something I definitely don't take for granted. But yeah, I am living in the Dripping Springs area with my husband and my fur baby. And I think something good this week was, I have three nieces who are all like right around the two year age mark and I got to FaceTime all of them at some point this week. And I just like really sweet, like the joy that they bring my life is just really fun. So I think that's something good from this school that's so happy. Yeah, they're really, really happy. two year olds. Mm-Hmm. . They're just a
Lauren King (00:06:00):
Freaking blast.
Amy Hester (00:06:01):
Yeah. They'll wear you down
Julie Kotulek (00:06:03):
, but
Lauren King (00:06:03):
They are fun. Truly
Julie Kotulek (00:06:05):
Full-time job. Lauren lk, can we kick it to you?
Lauren King (00:06:10):
Hi. Yes. So my name is Lauren King and I go to downtown. I've been at the Stone for a little over five years now. Also. I didn't realize we'd been here in the same amount of time. Yeah. So yeah, a little over five years. I'm in the Mueller neighborhood. Mueller, whatever. We're neighbors. Yeah. literally doors away. We are, yes. And oh, something good that, okay. This is uniquely good week. I feel like normally I don't have this happy of news, but this past week I was accepted in a nursing school, . And so, so proud. I know what's happening with my life now. So that's really good news is I get to go continue on the path to become a pediatric nurse and I'm so stoked about. That's
Julie Kotulek (00:06:54):
Awesome. I love that so much. We're excited for you as
Lauren King (00:06:56):
Cool. Yeah. Thanks friend.
Julie Kotulek (00:06:57):
Yeah, it's been super fun to, I don't know, see you discern that and step into it and I don't know, just be faithful. That's been really fun, so
Speaker 4 (00:07:05):
Thank you.
Julie Kotulek (00:07:05):
Yeah, it's a big week. Love those babies. Yeah. Okay, well thank you for being here. I'm excited to have this conversation to start us off to just ease us into conversation. I would love for us to just talk about what comes to mind when you hear the word freedom. Like silly or serious, what pops into your head?
Lauren King (00:07:27):
. . You wanna know what I actually thought of first?
Julie Kotulek (00:07:30):
I love
Lauren King (00:07:31):
That we just both start laughing. Yes. Tell us. We do. As long as it's appropriate. Oh yeah. It's, it's appropriate. I just like see this, um, bald eagle, soaring in front of like a waving American flag. Oh my gosh. The freedom ring. And there's like a crowd chanting. SA usa. I also thought of, I've never seen this movie, but you know, the, the gift from Braveheart, it's like freedom. Yes. Yes. I, I don't have any context for that gif that that was another thing that came to mind. It's, it's a, it's a favorite g
Amy Hester (00:08:07):
This is why we love you . What'd you think of Amy? I think like the first thing that pops in my head is just like, I, it's summertime in Texas. I'm driving around like with my best friend in the passenger seat. We have like our favorite T Swift songs blaring. The windows are down. Yeah. And we're just like singing our hearts out. It's like that moment where you're like, nothing bad can happen right now. Mm-Hmm. That kind of like, feels like a freedom moment for me.
Julie Kotulek (00:08:35):
I love that. Mine is the 4th of July . Like, I feel like I feel the like the best fourth of Julys that I've ever had. Where you're like at the lake all day, you're sunburned. Yeah. You've had hot dogs. There's fireworks, . Yes. Like red, white and blue. Um, and so yeah, just like the, just like picture the best like lake day kind of like similar, I think it's kind of like a combo of like what both of you said um,
Lauren King (00:09:01):
Patriotic friendship.
Julie Kotulek (00:09:03):
Yeah. Is, yeah. Um, yeah. So that's just like what comes to mind.
Amy Hester (00:09:09):
I can resonate with the fireworks.
Julie Kotulek (00:09:10):
Fireworks feel
Amy Hester (00:09:11):
Like freedom
Julie Kotulek (00:09:11):
To me. Yeah. They do. You know, just like, I don't know, just like a letting loose. Yeah. And so like shooting things into the sky just like, feels like, you know, feels real good. Okay. Well I think that letting loose is a great segue or just like, I think that would like kind of define like a what comes to mind in worldly terms when we think of freedom is just kind of like free to do what we want. Um, and I think that's a great transition into our next question as we're trying to like, form and talk in the vein of like what's biblical freedom. I'd love to just start by like what some scriptures, um, that come to mind that inform your biblical definition of freedom.
Amy Hester (00:09:54):
Hmm. I think for sure like Romans eight is the first thing that comes to mind is that like, we don't have any condemnation in Christ, but I know you already read that scripture, Jules. So some other things that come to mind is Romans 6 23, that the wages of our sin is death, but the free gift that Jesus offers us is eternal life. And then the other scripture that came to mind when you mentioned that was Galatians four, seven, it says, so you're no longer a slave, but you're a son. And since you're a son, God has made you also an error. And I just love that like, Jesus's invitation in all three of those instances isn't just like a calling away from like being slaves, but we're like being invited into something more. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. And that feels like freedom to me. It's not just like, okay, you can't do that anymore. Mm-Hmm. . It's like, because there's something better that I have in store for you. You're not just a sun, you're a co-heir, you know? And, um, it's
Lauren King (00:10:55):
Like replacing it with something rather than just like stripping away. Okay, it's not this, but figure out what it is. Like there's like a gift in its place.
Julie Kotulek (00:11:03):
Yeah. That's good.
Amy Hester (00:11:04):
Yeah, for sure.
Julie Kotulek (00:11:05):
I think that's so good because I think like it's so easy just in like life with people and accountability. It's so easy to call people out of sin.
Speaker 4 (00:11:16):
Mm-Hmm. .
Julie Kotulek (00:11:16):
And to say like, stop that. Like that's wrong. And then we like leave them there and forget to call them like into the abundance that is on the other side of like, this isn't just a stop because it's bad. This is a like, stop because this isn't like what's genuinely best for you and doesn't lead to your, your flourishing. And like, there's something so much better.
Amy Hester (00:11:42):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:11:42):
Like it's not just neutral like you're
Amy Hester (00:11:44):
Saying. Yeah. Because you don't, like, there's no vision. Mm-Hmm. the first way, you know, so it's like, why would I wanna go there and there's no hope there for me. Yeah. I mean, there's no vision that people perish. Yeah. Mm. Okay. What about you?
Lauren King (00:12:01):
So when I was thinking about this question, what immediately popped into my head was John 8 36, which says, so if the sun sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Speaker 4 (00:12:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:12:11):
. Um, but that kind of got my wills turning of like, okay, free from what?
Speaker 4 (00:12:16):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:12:16):
. Um, like there's, yeah. Like, okay, if he said to you free, you'll be free indeed, but like to what end? And so I went and looked at the context of John eight. I'll just read this little part. Uh, starting in verse 31. It says, so Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, if you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. So that's the avenue. The truth will set you free. Mm-Hmm. , they answer to him, we are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say you will become free? So they're like, we're not anyone slaves. Like, which I think is the attitude we can have sometimes of like, what are you talking about? I'm free. Yeah. I'm an American. .
Speaker 4 (00:13:00):
. Yeah.
Lauren King (00:13:00):
Uh, was born in a privilege, you know, but Jesus answered them truly, truly. I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
Speaker 4 (00:13:10):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:13:10):
the slave does not remain in the house forever. And it's funny, this ties to what you were saying, Amy, the slave does not remain in the house forever. The sun remains forever. So if the sun sets you free, you'll be free. Indeed. It's like, what are we free from? We're free from sin.
Amy Hester (00:13:28):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:13:28):
And the consequences of it.
(00:13:31):
Yes. The overarching like spiritual death, hell, we're free from that. Praise God. But even just like the day-to-day, like sin is just destructive and it controls us and it makes us slaves to whatever we're craving. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and we just follow our cravings and we just like keep going. But when we live in truth, like he says, like the truth, we'll say you free in Christ, we become sons and daughters and we find everything we're craving in him. Yeah. And so it's just like, oh, I don't have to follow everything my heart wants anymore because I can rest and like, oh, that thing I want, like actually found in Christ. Yeah. Because I'm a son and he gives me good gifts and he takes care of me. And I don't have to fear, I don't have to strive. Like Yeah. I don't know. So it's funny we both That's good. We're like drawn to those like Yeah. The vision of what it's Mm-Hmm. replacing Yeah. Which is sonship and Yeah. It gives you that
Amy Hester (00:14:36):
We like the why behind.
Lauren King (00:14:37):
Yes. And we sit under a good father. Mm-Hmm. , um, um, who is like, no, I wanna free you from like, the destruction that this causes.
Speaker 5 (00:14:47):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:14:48):
Um, which is, yeah. Just so sweet. That's good. Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:14:53):
I think I'm in like a similar vein of the two of you. The scripture that has stood out to me, um, just in preparing for this conversation and thinking about it, um, Galatians five one, which says, it is for freedom that Christ has set us free stand firm then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by the yoke of slavery. And I love the way that that verse starts just the, it is for freedom. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you are, it, it's the like emphasis of like you are called into like to live into something, um, rather than just like, called out. Yeah. And so, I don't know, I think it's kind of sweet that, um, we're aligned in like kind of those ways and in the kind of similar
Lauren King (00:15:34):
Things. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Like freedom to byproduct. It's like the whole point.
Julie Kotulek (00:15:38):
Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:15:39):
. Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:15:39):
Yeah. I think we kind of touched on this in some roundabout ways, um, but just to make like the tie super clear, what does freedom have to do with holiness? Um, like I think we could maybe like, based off of what we said so far and what I read at the beginning, like make some assumptions as to what that is. But if you two had to like articulate how are they linked and like, why is it important that we rightly understand freedom in our pursuit of holiness? I think it's been like
Amy Hester (00:16:10):
Kind of hard for me to like wrap my mind fully around this question. But some, some of the things that first come to mind is like, if I don't have like a deep rooted belief that I'm truly free in Christ, then I'm gonna operate outside of the bounds of like Jesus' life and like the holiness that he imputes into me and the holiness that he calls me into. I'm gonna like look to the world to find that sort of freedom that I'm looking for. And so I think it, like, we do like a total disservice to ourselves walking the Christian life of like, if we're, if we're, if we're disassociating like freedom and freedom in Christ
Speaker 4 (00:16:58):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hester (00:16:59):
And how that relates to our holiness. Like, I think just when we look to the world for freedom, like time and time again, we're gonna look to things that are gonna satisfy and gratify our flesh. Mm-Hmm. not satisfy the Holy Spirit inside of us. Yeah. And so I just think that like, we can't look at freedom and holiness as the same because when we look outside of it, that's when we say yes to our flesh and not to the spirit. Yeah. That's so good. Mm-Hmm. . Does that make sense? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Okay. It does. I'm tracking. Yeah.
Lauren King (00:17:28):
I think too, like holiness is just functioning in the way God designed. Yeah. You know, I think we can see holiness as like the list of rules. Mm-Hmm. you follow or else
Amy Hester (00:17:39):
Or
Lauren King (00:17:40):
Else? . . And I'm just like, for anything, who would you wanna go to to learn the best way? Mm-Hmm. How to use something. Like if you're using your iPhone and you're like, I wanna maximize this, I want to use it the best way I can, you're gonna go talk to the creator, like the best source of how to maximize that and use it for every beautiful function that's in it.
Speaker 4 (00:18:07):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:18:08):
Is talking to the creator of it.
Speaker 4 (00:18:10):
Mm-Hmm. .
Lauren King (00:18:10):
Yeah. And they're gonna tell you all the intricacies and how it functions well and how not to use it and like, yeah. Don't, I don't know. I was thinking about this last night, I was like, don't make guacamole with your iPhone. Mm-Hmm. like, if you smash up an avocado, it's gonna get in your speaker and that's not what it was designed for, you know? Yeah. But like, it can do a lot of wonderful Yeah. And it's not like, oh, it's so restrictive that they're like, yeah, no, don't make guacamole. Don't . I don't dunno. I think I was hungry last night, but Yeah. Yeah. But just like, you're not gonna be like, oh my gosh, that's so rude that apple would tell us what we can and cannot do with our iPhone. It's like, well, sure. Like if you want to go start smashing avocado Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:18:49):
You technically could.
Lauren King (00:18:50):
You can Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:18:51):
Like, you're, you could do that. Yeah. But it's just gonna be
Lauren King (00:18:53):
Dumb. It's not what it was designed for. Yeah. And so I think in the same way there's freedom
Speaker 5 (00:19:02):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:19:02):
to fully operate how we were designed when we follow
Speaker 5 (00:19:07):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:19:08):
The rules of Howard. Not the rule, but like the, the design Yeah. Follow the overarching design.
Julie Kotulek (00:19:14):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Amy Hester (00:19:14):
Yeah. I'm checking with you.
Julie Kotulek (00:19:16):
That's so good. I think it's just been like, uh, to just like realize in like the super simple way. Like, I can't even pursue holiness if I don't have freedom in Christ.
Speaker 4 (00:19:29):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:19:29):
Like, it, I, I'm incapable of, of even trying to please God or like pursue the flourishing that he has in the original design that he has for me. Until I'm set free in Christ, I will bend in the opposite direction. And so just to acknowledge that like, freedom in Christ truly is the, like what fuels and even makes possible the way for us to pursue holiness. Yeah.
Amy Hester (00:20:00):
I like your use of the word. I'm like incapable. Mm-Hmm. . Like, it reminds me of like our limit limitedness. Like that we're limited Mm-Hmm. and that God is not, and that we're only made able to through
Julie Kotulek (00:20:14):
Christ. Yeah. That's a good reminder. I think hearing you say that I specifically and just to, I don't know, bring us back to our A SCP days, the passage. I will forget the reference off the top of my head where it says like, you were dead in your trespasses incense.
Speaker 4 (00:20:29):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:20:30):
And to think about the lecture, an A, SDP, I can't remember which one that is essentially like drawing attention to like a dead person cannot get up
Speaker 5 (00:20:38):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:20:38):
And like walk or move or do any, like, it is a, like, the ability for that to happen is completely outside of someone who is dead.
Amy Hester (00:20:45):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:20:45):
. Um, and so just to link that like away from Christ and the freedom that I have in him, I, I cannot choose that.
Lauren King (00:20:52):
Yeah. That's good. I think it's hard 'cause people see the call to holiness as restrictive.
Speaker 4 (00:20:59):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
Lauren King (00:21:00):
You know, like they don't see it as life giving thing of like, oh, I'm coming from dead to life. It's like, no, I'm living how I want. Mm-Hmm. . And when I go to follow Christ, there's, there's actually a call to die to self. Mm-Hmm. . And you know, like it feels so,
Speaker 5 (00:21:21):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:21:23):
I don't know. Yeah. Restrictive and like, why are you putting rules on me? And Mm-Hmm. they wouldn't see it as dead to life. They see it as I have to die to self.
Speaker 5 (00:21:31):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:21:32):
And I was thinking about this, I was thinking about, um, I heard like a random sermon from Will Bos a few months ago, and he was talking about if you were to go and swim with sharks and you're in one of, like, you have the freedom if you want to just go swim with the sharks.
Speaker 4 (00:21:51):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:21:51):
. And he was saying, but how much more freedom do you have to enjoy the experience if you're in a cage? You know? Mm-Hmm. . Like if you're in one of those like metal bars where they can't come at you. Yeah. And would you say the metal cage is restrictive and like, oh my gosh, that's impeding my freedom. Mm-Hmm. . No, it's protective. Mm-Hmm. . It's for your good. And you actually get to enjoy the fullness of that experience more because you're not afraid you're about to get chomped up. Yeah. So like, that's good. I don't, so good analogy. That's good visual. I think it's easy for people to hear what you're saying Julie of like, oh, dead and come to life and be like, mm. BS I'm calling BS on
Speaker 4 (00:22:33):
That. Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:22:33):
. Um, and so that's just like reminding myself of like, no, like his guidelines, his boundaries are to keep you safe and help you enjoy this life. Yeah. Yeah. The same as like if a kid's about to touch a hot stove and a parent's like, don't touch it. Mm-Hmm. . They're not trying to like ruin the kid's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're trying to like, help them not get burned and so Yeah. Yeah. For your food. I don't know. I was just thinking about that of like where our minds can go and how to combat that a little bit.
Julie Kotulek (00:23:01):
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren King (00:23:02):
That's good.
Julie Kotulek (00:23:03):
I'm curious if you two have any thoughts, just because I thought of this as you were thinking this, of living into our freedom in Christ, ultimately our pursuit of holiness it feeling like death, like it not feeling like life and flourishing and just at least initially. And so I'm just curious if you two have any comments on like, time, like in the, like does that make sense of like, or just like what you would say to someone who initially is like this just, this does not feel like everything you just said, like, thriving. This feels like death.
Speaker 4 (00:23:42):
Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:23:43):
Because I know when I first to follow Christ, and I still even have moments where it, it feels like only death. And so I think I'm more so trying to get to just the like, this is slow.
Speaker 4 (00:23:56):
Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:23:57):
Does that make sense? Like it's a long game. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And just do you have any thoughts there? It's okay if you don't.
Lauren King (00:24:04):
I think it really is like you have to taste the positive consequences and it's like that keeps you going. Mm-Hmm. . And sometimes it takes a while to get there. Like, I know it's easy like for me to be like, I'm 31 years old and I'm following Christ's call to holiness when it comes to dating. And that looks very different than a lot of other people in Austin. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And it can feel like, oh my gosh, I am such a prude or Mm-Hmm. , I am just like so backwards. But when you play the long game and you, and you experience it over the years, you see why, you see the, why the, like you were saying Amy, like when you have the vision, you see the why of like, oh yeah, he called me into this because I have less heartbreak, I have less fear of consequences that would come from like a non godly sexual ethic.
(00:25:11):
Mm-Hmm. or a selfish consumer mindset in dating or whatever. And it leads to better relationships and better breakups and better like Yeah. You know, just like a freedom of like, I've been on the other side of it where you're like, you make poor decisions and you're in the shower and no matter how much you clean yourself, you don't feel clean, you know? Mm-Hmm. . Like, there's just, there's a cost in the long run of following the way that's not Christ. Mm-Hmm. . You know? And I think if you stick with it, like if you're at the beginning of it and you're like, oh, this is hard, why the heck am I doing this? No one else is pursuing holiness in this way. Mm-Hmm. stick with it long enough. And I think you'll start to taste like, oh, I love that. I didn't feel that way. Yeah. I love that. I didn't have to worry about this. Like, you start to be more convinced that God actually is for your good.
Speaker 5 (00:26:10):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:26:10):
Um, and is not some like dictator who's like, ha ha, I want you steal your joy. But he is like, no, no, I want you to flourish. And so yeah. I think it's like, hang in there until you taste the good for you. Yeah. Yeah. You know?
Julie Kotulek (00:26:25):
Yeah. I just wanted to circle back to that because I think it's so important to acknowledge that there are some things about our freedom in Christ that are, are true like right now in this moment, but then to also make the distinction that in our experience, in my experience, that can often not feel like it is, like it's not true yet. Um, and the importance. And I think that actually fuels like freedom and endurance and the long game to say, this is already true about me right now. And so I get to live into it. Mm-Hmm. Even if my experience and my feelings and my emotions and the like, struggle that I'm having with this particular sin or thing that has me in slavery, like is telling me otherwise.
Speaker 4 (00:27:08):
Mm.
Julie Kotulek (00:27:08):
Um, just to acknowledge that it's, it's lifelong. Like, even though it's true for us in this moment, like I think we will have kind of like a wobbly toddler like experience of like walking
Lauren King (00:27:22):
That
Julie Kotulek (00:27:22):
Out.
Lauren King (00:27:22):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:27:23):
And his affection for you is not wavering
Lauren King (00:27:25):
In that either. Yeah. Like, you can do that without
Julie Kotulek (00:27:27):
Fear. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just to turn our conversation a little bit, um, more personal, will you tell me an example or a story from your own life where it's clear that what felt like freedom to you wasn't actually freedom at all? And I know we had a conversation about this before and I actually have my like a pretty solid answer for it, so I'm happy to go first if the two of you would like go first. You got it. . Yeah. Okay. I think as I've just been processing and sitting in text and scriptures and that kind of thing, I feel like the spirit of God has wrecked me a little bit in freedom as relates to unforgiveness in the sense that I think it's easy to sit in unforgiveness and feel validated.
Speaker 4 (00:28:25):
Mm.
Julie Kotulek (00:28:26):
Just like it's right. And like, therefore it's okay. And I feel like through preparing for this, the spirit has just like allowed me to see the, like unforgiveness in some ways feels really good to my flesh. Mm-Hmm. It feels right. It feels what it's like, it feels like freedom to me because I feel wronged.
Speaker 4 (00:28:48):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:28:48):
And just to get to see with like, I feel like some renewed clarity, the bondage that unforgiveness actually is.
Speaker 4 (00:28:57):
Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:28:57):
And the way Yeah. Just like my feelings don't necessarily match that boom when I really like pull back the layers and examine it. It's like, this is not like, this is not good for me. This has me like in a cage like it, and it, and out of unforgiveness comes these like negative patterns of like negative thought, negative like rumination on things, like operating in relationships in a certain way that like, isn't, isn't great for either of us. That kind of thing. And so that is what has like, come to mind for me and what I feel like when I've looked at my life and it's like, where do I , where does my flesh feel free that when look through the lens of what true freedom actually is? I'm actually like really stuck.
Speaker 4 (00:29:46):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:29:46):
. Um, and really like driven by this thing in my flesh to some extent, like outside of my control until I grab hold of what's true of me in Christ and get to choose forgiveness.
Lauren King (00:30:02):
Mm-Hmm. That's good. It's those sneaky little,
Amy Hester (00:30:07):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:30:08):
Mm-Hmm. freedoms.
Amy Hester (00:30:10):
Yeah. Something I was thinking when you were sharing Julia was like, it feels like a disillusionment of like, oh, what I'm thinking is freedom is actually putting me back into bondage. Mm-Hmm. like, I, I even like get this picture of like, you know, like Christ came to like, take the chains and like open the door cell, like take the chains off, open the door cell. And he's like, you get to walk out. And when we choose sin, we're like, I'm gonna close the door like the cell back, I'm gonna lock myself back into these shackles. Like we're choosing bondage in those moments and, and we think that it's freedom, but in all reality, it's the opposite of what Christ has come for us. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
Julie Kotulek (00:30:50):
The other thing that I will just add that I think I've, I've seen is I think it's really easy for us to view our sin as something that like only impacts us.
Speaker 4 (00:31:00):
Mm-Hmm. .
Julie Kotulek (00:31:01):
And as I have processed this specifically, I like, I'm not o in, I'm like, especially in the case of where it's a brother or a sister in Christ, I'm not only putting myself in bondage, but I'm in some kind of way also putting them in some kind of bondage because I'm operating with them in a way that is not true of them in light of the gospel.
Speaker 4 (00:31:25):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:31:26):
Um, like I'm with, I'm withholding from a brother or a sister. What, like, what the gospel says is true about our relationship and about each other and that person Mm-Hmm. And so it's just been super convicting to me to be like, I'm putting myself in chains and I'm putting someone else in chains. Yeah. And neither of us have really known about it. Mm-Hmm. Like, yeah. You know, so if I had to answer that question, that's what, that's my answer.
Amy Hester (00:31:56):
Yeah. That's, that's good. Thanks for sharing that. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Julie, I think just in relation to your question, something that has been, it's just hard to even say out loud, but, um, I mean, thank God for just gals in my community coming alongside me. Like having opportunity to, to like come and confess and repent and be held accountable. But I think just for me, it has been masturbation within the context of my marriage. My husband's name is Trent, and we, um, we love him. We do, we love, he truly is, shout out Trent. I dunno if he listens to the on podcast, but I'm gonna have to get him too, if not. But I can like specifically recall like one instance where like Trent and I had had sex. I was disappointed with the outcome of it. He was not, we went our separate ways and I chose to like, go into a restroom and masturbate so that my flesh could be gratified in the moment.
(00:32:57):
And in the moment I'm like, there's nothing wrong with this. I was left wanting and I want to be satisfied in this moment. But then I think just like looking back at it in hindsight, I'm like, in so many ways it caused division within my marriage the exact opposite for like why God created sex within the context of a covenant relationship with my husband. You know? And so it was really hard really hard to like wanna come to him and share that and confess that. But like in the interim before like confessing or repenting of that, gosh, it's just like total selfishness on display of like, because you didn't meet my needs, I'm gonna go out of my way to meet them myself. And yeah, I think just like ultimately leading to like death in the sense of like what you said earlier of like, it's affecting my marriage bed, you know, it's affecting emotional and sexual intimacy with my husband because I'm choosing my flesh in this moment.
(00:34:06):
And I mean, thank god for grace. Thank God for a husband who's willing to offer me grace, um, when I have confessed to him and have repented before him. But yeah, it's just, I think like that's just not part of what God has designed for my marriage. That's not part of what God has designed for my life and for my flourishing. It has like wrought destruction and it has wrought Yeah. Just like shame on my own life. And that's not what God like has for my life. He has so much greater for my life. And I just wanna also speak to like the freedom that comes with confession and repentance. Mm-Hmm. And like t tr I have had such a great sex life since then in talking about that. And in coming out of that and in being held accountable to not continue to seek those things and to have honest conversations with Trent about where I'm feeling disappointed or where I'm not feeling met and not that all of my needs are meant to be met and Trent, but just in the context of sexual intimacy with my husband. Like I've just seen so much bondage in like choosing my flesh
Speaker 4 (00:35:15):
Mm-Hmm.
Amy Hester (00:35:15):
And so much freedom in like, coming clean about it and choosing like what God has designed for my marriage, not what I think is best for in a moment. Mm-Hmm. within the context of my marriage. Yeah.
Lauren King (00:35:28):
I'm so glad you brought up like the freedom that comes from repentance. Yeah. 'cause that's like what I kept as I was preparing and praying about this podcast. Like that's just what I kept coming back to was like what, like, I was like, when have I experienced the most freedom? And I think it sounds backwards 'cause we're like exposing ourself in a very Mm-Hmm. vulnerable way. Like it feels safer to just not say like, Trent probably would've never known that you went to do that.
Speaker 4 (00:35:57):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:35:58):
And no one else would've known. Yeah. And you could have just held onto that and been like, God, I'm sorry I did that. Help me not do it again.
Speaker 4 (00:36:06):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:36:06):
, you know, but like you choosing to drag the ugly into the light before God, but also before Trent, before your community. Oh, I've experienced that too. And it's so sweet. Mm-Hmm. like that's where the freedom is, is you're like, I have nothing to hide.
Amy Hester (00:36:22):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:36:22):
Like, there is nothing in the shadows. Mm-Hmm. . You're, you're not carrying the weight, you know? Yeah. And I think that's like, that's just been so true in my life is so much of my life was spent like trying to manage my sin. Mm-Hmm. Rather than like exposing it.
Speaker 4 (00:36:40):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:36:40):
You know? Mm-Hmm. . Um, and I knew it was wrong and I'd like tell God I was sorry. But the utmost freedom I felt is when I've come before other humans Mm-Hmm. and just been like, guys, this is true of me. Yeah. Um, this is true of either what I did or what I'm thinking or what I'm feeling and just exposing those ugliest parts.
Speaker 4 (00:37:04):
Mm-Hmm. .
Lauren King (00:37:04):
And then getting the opportunity to experience the gospel of people being like, Hey, thanks for telling us.
Speaker 5 (00:37:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:37:11):
Christ set you free.
Speaker 5 (00:37:12):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:37:12):
You are forgiven. Yeah. Let's keep going. Yeah. And oh gosh, I'm just like so grateful you brought that up. 'cause I'm like, yes. Yes. Like, I think, did y'all do, y'all did a podcast on holiness and repentance,
Julie Kotulek (00:37:26):
Right? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I was actually just about to plug both the two episodes that came before this one. It's Holiness and Repentance and then Holiness and Community.
Speaker 4 (00:37:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:37:37):
and I, I like don't wanna miss the opportunity, Amy, to just thank you for sharing. Mm-Hmm. . Um, I like, I feel like I lost words 'cause I just feel like really proud of you. 'cause I had no idea that this is like what you were gonna show up and share. Um, yeah. Me either here we're, when I asked you to do this, um, and just to like color in some perspective for like in a communal aspect, like when it started to come out of your mouth. I remember, uh, Amy and I are also an LTG together with another gal in our mc and I, as you started to talk, I remember you come at Chick-fil-A
Lauren King (00:38:19):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:38:19):
In LTG
Lauren King (00:38:20):
And the Lord's restaurant.
Julie Kotulek (00:38:23):
The Lord Look at you. And I remember you confessing to us in tears.
Speaker 4 (00:38:28):
Mm-Hmm. .
Julie Kotulek (00:38:28):
And so I, I don't know, I just like am so honored and so proud and it just like goes to show the importance of like, community. And so I think like we laid out this series to build upon each other. So if you haven't gone and listened to repentance and community, you should definitely do that. Yeah.
Amy Hester (00:38:49):
Yeah. Thanks Jules.
(00:38:51):
Mm-Hmm. . I, I like you even mentioning that like s speaking of freedom, I feel so free sitting in this chair right now talking to you guys versus sitting across from Juliet Chick-fil-A confessing my sin. Like I, there were tears, there was visibly shaking and now I'm like smiling. I'm like, I'm only the Lord knows if I will like step back into that sin again. Mm-Hmm. like, God forbid I pray the Holy Spirit does not, but right now, like I'm walking in freedom from that sin. Mm-Hmm. . And so I'm just like, I feel a tangible difference in my body, in my soul peace and my mental clarity. The shame like you're talking about Lauren, of like not having to like be found out. Like I have these things hidden in the closet and I hope no one opens the door. You know, like there's just so much freedom to be found there and I'm a living testimony of that. I
Lauren King (00:39:47):
Love that sister. Yeah. That's so good. Thanks. Okay. If we're plugging things.
Speaker 5 (00:39:50):
Yeah. Come on.
Lauren King (00:39:51):
. I feel like right now we have to plug, uh, recovery ministry.
(00:39:55):
Yeah. And plug, it used to be called steps now it's called rhythms. If you like me are like, how in the living heck am I going to tell people about this? 'cause like, y'all don't know how ugly it gets. Like I found the tools to actually tangibly do this through steps or through what is algorithms. Mm-Hmm. . If I hadn't gone through that program, I don't think I would've ever learned how to live in the freedom of repentance. To live like proactively. Not just waiting to be found out, but proactively. Like, I did this, this is the ugliest ugliness of my heart. Mm-Hmm. . And have the tools to like apply the gospel to that and walk in freedom. Like if you're like, how do I even do this? Just go sign up. It already started for the fall, but go sign up for the spring. Gosh.
(00:40:44):
It's just so helpful. They kind of take you step by step and walk you through like, okay, what's a center wrestling with? And what lies is that born out of? Mm-Hmm. . And what is the truth that we wanna replace it with? Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And, uh, just helps you dig into it so that like, 'cause I think you going to Chick-fil-A and sharing that, like that was built on a foundation of you being sure of the gospel and being sure of who God is. I think there are some people who are like, there's a new way in heck I would ever tell someone that, especially in a public place. Mm-Hmm. . So I'm like, if you need tools, go to recovery.
Julie Kotulek (00:41:21):
Mm-Hmm. .
Lauren King (00:41:22):
It changed my life.
Julie Kotulek (00:41:22):
Yeah. That's so good.
Lauren King (00:41:24):
I'm so much more free.
Julie Kotulek (00:41:25):
Mm-Hmm. .
Lauren King (00:41:26):
Honestly, I'm way less of like uptight. I had freaking stick up my rear. You guys and like Yeah. I just like, yeah. It's yeah. So worthwhile to dig in. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And to just own your crap. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:41:44):
Mm.
Lauren King (00:41:45):
It's just so
Speaker 5 (00:41:46):
Freeing.
Julie Kotulek (00:41:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:41:47):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:41:47):
Yeah. It's, yeah. I just, a little funny thing that I thought of the other day at LTG, we had a moment of like looking at the table we sit at and being like, if this table could talk , and immediately Amy goes, I preferred that you wouldn't . So, but it is just, I don't know. Yeah. It's like I have a couch menu
Lauren King (00:42:10):
Like that too. Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:42:12):
. Yeah. Okay. This conversation is so good. And I think that there's, in some ways, again, that we could draw like some answers to the next like, few questions that I'm gonna ask us to talk about. But just like, for the sake of clarity, want to ask them what does living in freedom look like when you're tempted to sin? Like, we've talked a lot about Lauren and I think you just hit on like, what is it, what does freedom look like when I have fallen into sin? And that being repentance and confession and grabbing a hold of what's true. Mm-Hmm. . But like, what, can you talk to me a little bit about of like what does living in freedom look like in the thick of temptation?
Amy Hester (00:42:53):
Hmm. I don't wanna make it sound like you just gotta pull yourself up by the bootstraps and say no, because that's not helpful. But I do wanna say that it's like when we are living in the freedom that Christ offers us, like we get to say no, or we like have the opportunity to say no when we're being tempted. And I'm not saying that's easy. I'm not saying like, I can look at like temptation every time and say no, but I just wanna speak to the fact that like, that's what we get. That's the hope that we're being called into. That's the life that we're being called to live of. Just like the freedom is the choice to say no to the thing. And yes, the other side of that is the freedom to say yes to the sin. But I, I think about like in Romans six where it talks about like, that we're no longer slaves to our flesh. And I know we've kind of talked around this, but that we've been set free. And I just think about those moments of temptation. Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit being our helper, and that like, we really do have opportunity in freedom in Christ to call on our helper and and be dependent. Yes. Like to like be honest with our hearts before and be like, God, I'm really be temp. I'm really being tempted by my flesh to masturbate right now.
(00:44:13):
Mm-Hmm. . But as much as I want to, like, I wanna honor you, I wanna choose life, I wanna choose freedom, I wanna choose flourishing. I wanna choose health in my marriage. And like a ask him, like, he wants us to be dependent upon him because he can carry the load. Mm-Hmm. , you know, like, we, we can't, yeah. It's, it's too heavy for us. And I also just think, like, I know we've talked around this like practically, but we've talked around this a bit, but just practically speaking, like it's helpful to like shoot my LTG partner or my friend just be like, Hey, I'm really struggling with this. Like, can you call me? Or, Hey, can you just pray for me? Or Hey, can you check in on me? That's just been a really helpful tool in my life. So
Lauren King (00:44:57):
Yeah. I agree. Whether it's sin or just temptation, like dragging into the light with
Amy Hester (00:45:02):
People. Yeah.
Lauren King (00:45:02):
Dragging the light with the Lord, but also just expose it as fast as possible. Like, you don't have to wait to give in to the temptation.
Speaker 5 (00:45:10):
Mm-Hmm. . Because
Lauren King (00:45:11):
I think, I think we can feel ugly sometimes that we even have the temptation, but Jesus was tempted, so like
Speaker 5 (00:45:16):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:45:16):
There's no shame in temptation. Yeah. I think the enemy wants us to feel shame and temptation of like, well I haven't actually done this in so I can just keep my mouth shut and people won't think poorly of me. Mm-Hmm. . But dude, before it even gets a sin, drag it into the light.
Speaker 5 (00:45:31):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren King (00:45:32):
Bring community in. I know my, my big like sticking sin is just this unhealthy craving for the affection and praise of others. Mm-Hmm. . And I will like text my LTG partner. Shout out to Val Val, I love you . We love Val. Text her and be like, I am feeling this in this moment. And usually I'm angry 'cause I feel entitled to praise or acknowledgement or affection and I'm not getting it. And, and it feels just so petty and it feels like I am just like a toddler stamping my feet. But we call it howling at the moon. Actually, I stole that from Todd Engstrom, so I should give credit where credit stew . But um, yeah, we just hollowed the moon of like, I'm feeling this way. I want to spiral into these thoughts.
Speaker 4 (00:46:28):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Lauren King (00:46:30):
I know it's not true, but like, I'm gonna go to unhealthy places Yeah. If I don't just like say this and it's just like a safe space to be like,
Speaker 5 (00:46:37):
Man,
Lauren King (00:46:37):
Glad you said that. What is true?
Speaker 5 (00:46:39):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:46:39):
And like, forcing yourself to call to mind what True. Even if you don't believe it, I feel like is Yeah. Comes to mind. Mm-Hmm. . I think also something that comes to mind when you're feeling tempted and like living in freedom can be boundaries.
Speaker 4 (00:46:52):
Mm.
Lauren King (00:46:53):
And I, like I go back to that shark tank metaphor or whatever. Mm-Hmm. . Like if you're tempted and you feel like you're being thrown in the shark tank, get a cage. You know? Yeah. Like have a boundary of not being home alone or of, I don't know, putting certain Yeah. Lockers on your phone Yeah. Or choosing not to hang out with certain people or whatever. And again, it's not for your restriction, but it's for your flourishing. And so Yeah. It's like some
Speaker 5 (00:47:22):
Protection.
Lauren King (00:47:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (00:47:25):
So yeah,
Lauren King (00:47:25):
That was, that was the third thing. It was like the power of the holy spirit, the power of community and the power of boundaries. Yeah. To set you
Amy Hester (00:47:33):
Free. Yeah. Can I add to that really quick? Yeah. Like I have, I've been in conversations before where like people will push back and be to that and be like, well, like Jesus really just like cares about the heart. And to that I would say yes, absolutely. Like, like God does not want our sacrifice. He wants a broken and contr heart before him, but it's like, you need what Lauren's talking about to come along and help that heart posture along of like, you need a heart posture that's right before the Lord in your sin, but you also need some boundaries to come along and help you pursue holiness in that heart posture. It's not one or the other. It's both. And
Speaker 5 (00:48:13):
Yeah.
Amy Hester (00:48:13):
And I just, um, yeah, I think that's helpful to maybe say
Lauren King (00:48:18):
There, but it's again, going back to vision. Like why, why are you bringing these boundaries in? Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:48:23):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'll just put emphasis on, I think, I don't know, in just the past few years, I have, when it comes to temptation, have had to acknowledge just a tendency in me to err uber self-sufficient Uber. I don't wanna be weak, I don't wanna ask for help. Amy is laughing. Really? Because y'all, like, I I also
Amy Hester (00:48:48):
Just love your word of Uber.
Julie Kotulek (00:48:49):
Yeah. You know, it just, these two know this about me. And so I can win, realizing that I can win in temptation for a long time. But there's even such a value in even sharing, like, Hey, I've been, I've been tempted in this way and I'm winning in it currently because even like, it feels like there's this build of like, because I have been silently winning or like I've been tempting and I tempted and I haven't fallen into sin, that it, it grows into this beast that then in a moment can just like get me Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Like the pressure just builds up over
Lauren King (00:49:27):
Time. The pressure just builds. Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:49:29):
And then because it's been like a, oh, well that hasn't really been that hard in a while, or this is a newer thing or something like that, it also diminishes the amount of looming shame that is there in taking it to my accountability because it's like, it's not like, how are we, like how did this happen? And like, we're just now hearing about it. Yeah. You know, so it's like, it's again to that like proactive, like protective, like just letting into people of the matters of your heart and like Mm-Hmm. the gunk of it and what's going on and being known in some ways that is beyond just confessing sin when it happens. Yeah. But like truly letting people into like knowing, hey, this is how, this is the way that I bend specifically. Yeah. That takes time. But I've just like, I think both of you are Kyle, like I've had moments in being like really good where like something will be hard or something like that. And y'all will asked such an informed question that is like, that is, we know you too well that is protective of me. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so, yeah. So I just like, there's just ways to be, to live in freedom and fight temptation that I think is more of like a wisdom
(00:50:42):
Bucket than, than like a what, what, what's tact, what, like what's my tactic?
Speaker 4 (00:50:48):
Yeah. To
Julie Kotulek (00:50:48):
Fight in this moment. That's good. And we need those.
Lauren King (00:50:51):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:50:51):
And then even like, what do I do after I send repentance?
Lauren King (00:50:54):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:50:54):
I think there's like a big wisdom conversation, which like you were saying, Lauren is like, how do I set myself up to win? And I think I would put emphasis on like, just being known.
Amy Hester (00:51:02):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:51:03):
Um,
Lauren King (00:51:04):
That's good.
Amy Hester (00:51:04):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (00:51:05):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:51:05):
And there's such an exhale that comes after letting people in, like
Speaker 5 (00:51:09):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:51:10):
If you're listening to this, just like, try this this week. Just tell something to someone that you wouldn't normally tell anyone. And I think you'll really feel this like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's known. Yeah. And then you get to go FA look through the flowers.
Julie Kotulek (00:51:25):
Yeah. just, yeah. F like I think we should be like, we should run towards confessing sin. Um, but just back to like the slowness that we mentioned earlier in this conversation, like a small win if you're not used to like living in freedom and repentance, like with people like a small win would just to be like, I'm gonna be vulnerable with someone this week.
Speaker 4 (00:51:49):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:51:49):
Not necessarily like, I'm gonna like drag my deepest darkest out. Yeah. If you feel like you can do that, like do it. But odds are that's probably gonna feel really terrifying if this isn't something that you regularly practice. And so just like be like, I'm going to give myself a little exercise that like, is essentially me allowing to be seen in some ways. Yeah. Even
Amy Hester (00:52:10):
If it's something silly. Like, I ate two bowls of cereal last night at midnight. You know, like it can just be something silly. Just practicing like being honest I think is Yeah. I like your, um, what you said, Julie, just about being proactive about it. Mm-Hmm. Like we don't have to wait until temptation's like knocking on our doorstep. Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:52:29):
Yeah.
Amy Hester (00:52:29):
Uh, there's interim for us to like practice wisdom and be proactive.
Julie Kotulek (00:52:33):
Yeah. Like I think that's where the enemy gets us. Yeah. It's like when we're waiting for it to be pounding on our door. Yeah. You
Amy Hester (00:52:37):
Know? Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (00:52:38):
Amy, I loved your example of two bowls of cereal before dinner. Um, guilty. Um, but I think that someone can hear us say something like that and be like, it's wrong to have two bowls of cereal before dinner.
Lauren King (00:52:55):
If it is, I don't wanna be
Julie Kotulek (00:52:56):
Right. . And it made me think of just kind of like the other way that we could go
Speaker 4 (00:53:04):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:53:04):
, um, in freedom, pursuit of holiness in, in the way of legalism, in the way of like hearing all of these rules, having this checkbox of like, I'm living in freedom and I'm living in and I'm pursuing holiness if I am tick, tick, tick, tick. Ticking 'em off the list.
Speaker 4 (00:53:22):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (00:53:23):
And have them so white knuckled and I'm killing it. So I'm just curious, do either of you ever struggle with legalism , um, and how does legalism contradict the freedom we have in Christ?
Lauren King (00:53:38):
Hi, my name is Lauren and I struggle with Legalism. . I, Lauren. I, I would like to be self-proclaimed queen of legalism probably. Um, this is just like a huge part of my story. I think when we talk about the two ditches of this like journey of holiness, of this sanctification moving from one degree of glory to the next. We can think of it as like the ditch on one side of sin, and I'm gonna do whatever the heck I want. And then the other ditch is this like legalism of like, I'm never gonna miss the mark and I'm gonna pursue holiness. And I know that freedom's on the other side of it, and there might be anxiety as I pursue it, but it's gonna be worth it because there's freedom on the other side. Mm-Hmm. And like you're saying, like white knuckling it. And so I definitely fall into that second ditch. And I think that comes from pursuing holiness with like, without a right view of myself.
Speaker 4 (00:54:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:54:38):
And that I can't, I can't pursue holiness alone. And I can't pursue holiness Yeah. In a silo. Mm-Hmm. without the Lord. And so it's also when I'm trying to pursue holiness without the help of God, you're talking about the Holy Spirit earlier, Amy. And just like, if you are trying to do this without asking, God, help me. Help me walk in the light. Help me walk in flourishing. I know that your ways are better for me and I need you to carry me.
Speaker 5 (00:55:14):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:55:15):
If you're not doing that, you will go to white knuckling. And I've, yeah. I've just experienced that. And it's funny, when I went through steps, like the very first step is admit, and it's like, admit that you are powerless over your own sin struggles. And that was the hardest of all the steps for me. 'cause I was like, no, I can do this. Like, I'm not powerless. And I remember like, I had to start counseling on step one because I was like, my whole body wanted to shut down. And there's like, I think if, if there's any form of abuse or trauma in your story, this will especially like, feel trigger triggering of like, no, I don't wanna feel powerless.
Speaker 4 (00:55:51):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:55:52):
But I think, yeah. When we, when we think we have the power to overcome sin by ourselves, it just leads to this. Like I can figure it out. And so I think I've seen throughout the course of my life, I thought, okay, when I do good things, that makes God happy. And when I do bad things, it makes god sad. And so I'm never gonna do anything bad. And so it put me on this pendulum of e either like extreme shame. Mm-Hmm. when I miss the mark or extreme pride when I was doing everything right. An entitlement of like, I've been doing everything right. Mm-Hmm. So I deserve it. And it's just this like ugly back and forth of like, oh my gosh, I'm the worst person ever. I can't believe I fell into this again and then swinging to like, I'm doing great. I deserve X, Y, Z. Mm-Hmm. . And the gospel gets you off that pendulum of like, I, I can own and have freedom when I've missed the mark and when I'm finding victory Mm-Hmm. in the pursuit of holiness. Mm-Hmm. is because I've been carried. Yeah. And no matter where you sit on that, I like, I think my legalism was born out of a deep like fear.
Speaker 4 (00:57:08):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:57:09):
Of I don't want God to be unhappy with me. Mm-Hmm. . Like I want, I want, I genuinely want to please him. I want to follow his ways. I know it's for my good. I know it's for his glory. And so I was just like so terrified of missing the mark.
Speaker 4 (00:57:23):
Mm-Hmm.
Lauren King (00:57:23):
because I didn't wanna make him unhappy. And I think everything changed when I realized his affections for me are constant. Hmm. His tenderness towards me is unwavering.
Speaker 5 (00:57:40):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:57:41):
Um, y'all are gonna laugh. Don't laugh. You're gonna laugh. You know what book I'm gonna plug right now? . We do .
Julie Kotulek (00:57:49):
Come on. Give it to us. Okay. Give it to the people.
Lauren King (00:57:52):
Go. If you struggle with legalism or you believe you're gonna lose the affection of God, stop laughing. Go reach gentle. Should we say it for her? I'm gonna say on three , 1, 2, 3. Gentle and lowly . Uh, go reach gentle and lowly by Yeah. Seriously. Dan Orland. And because sister, here's the thing is his affection for you is constant and he moves towards you in your brokenness. He moves towards you when you miss the mark.
Speaker 5 (00:58:20):
Yeah.
Lauren King (00:58:21):
You don't have to live in fear of messing up because you're going to like you slash you're gonna mess up. And when you do, he just moves toward you. And he's a good father who wraps his arms around you and is like, oh, you're wounded. Let's, let's tend to that. Mm-Hmm. . And let's keep going. And I think that truth is what keeps me out of the ditch of legalism on the pursuit of holiness. Yeah. And that is freedom when you're hand in hand with your tender father Yeah. Who's like, Hey baby girl. Like, yeah, let's tend to that and let's keep going. That was so long. No, it's really good. But that is where I found immense freedom.
Julie Kotulek (00:59:06):
Yeah. I just think, I think you actually lead us into a really like great way to table the conversation for now. I think as we've sat here and talked and have, we've prepared for this conversation, I'm like, we, like books are written on freedom in Christ alone. Mm-Hmm. . Like, it could, like the conversation could go like forever and ever. But Lauren, I think to hear you bring it back to like affection and intimacy and that kinda thing, and essentially like relationship, I think it's important to kind of like zoom out and like what, like what's the purpose of our like pursuit of holiness and the whole reason we have freedom. Um, and it's to be reunited with him, like to be in right relationship with our creator with God and to enjoy him and therefore like glorify him in who he is. Um, and be most satisfied in him.
(01:00:06):
Like that that freedom and holiness, the whole reason is intimacy with him to be brought back to right relationship. And so I think it's easy to get in the weeds of, of this conversation. And I think it's important and I think it's good. Um, but I think what fuels me in this conversation and even kind of like really helps get, keep me out of the two ditches we've talked about, which is like sin and legalism is that like this is about me and him. Mm-Hmm. . And yes, it ripples into other people and it has real implications on my day-to-day and life and that kind of thing. But really this is about me and him and like our
Speaker 4 (01:00:50):
Relationship. Mm-Hmm. ,
Julie Kotulek (01:00:51):
Um, and being like made right and getting to live more fully into the relationship that I'm like most satisfied in
Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (01:01:00):
And to live most rightly in the way that I was created to live and therefore live most abundantly
Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
Mm-Hmm.
Julie Kotulek (01:01:06):
Um, and so I think Yeah. Just to bring us to a point of like that's the whole point. And I think that's the thing that like protects us from the, the ditches Yeah. And makes it worth it.
Lauren King (01:01:16):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (01:01:16):
Um, it's no that like he is the prize.
Lauren King (01:01:19):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (01:01:19):
Um, and he will never fail and he will never let us down and we will never regret, like, we will never regret having pursued that. Like we will stand before him one day and I think we will fully say like, every time I said no to something that I wanted, it was worth it.
Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Julie Kotulek (01:01:35):
Um, like a thousand times over.
Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
Yeah. Mm.
Julie Kotulek (01:01:38):
Um, and that personally protects me in like, my pursuit of holiness as I walk in freedom. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 5 (01:01:46):
.
Lauren King (01:01:46):
Um,
Julie Kotulek (01:01:47):
Yeah. That's, I dunno if you two have anything to add,
Lauren King (01:01:50):
, it just makes you think of what Amy said at the beginning of like, ride in the car, windows down, music up beautiful day. Like that's you and the Lord. Like Yeah. Just, yeah. I mean chief end of man glorify God and enjoy him forever. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Um, yeah. Not, I don't know. Yeah. Live in deep fear of him forever, like past one like this enjoyment that's like, Jesus, let's go for a ride. Let's crank to tunes. Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (01:02:18):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Relations five one, like for freedom you have been set free.
Speaker 5 (01:02:24):
Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (01:02:25):
So like live into it. Yeah. Like don't like, like sprint in that direction. Like, it is so worth it and it is so beautiful. Yeah. Amy, you got anything to add? No pressure.
Amy Hester (01:02:36):
Mm. I just like hearing you even speak about it, like, gets me excited. I'm like, I want that and I have that and I want more of even what you're talking about, you know, like, and it, it really is just like such a honor, such a gift, a free gift,
(01:02:54):
Um, that we've been given to walk and do life with Jesus. And even just like sitting here, it gets me excited about like, heaven, you know, when we do come face to face with him when we do get to like, look at him and worship him forever, you know? But that doesn't start then that starts now that starts here in this room, you know? Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And so, gosh, I'm just like thankful that I get to walk a life of like freedom and holiness with the sisters I'm sitting with here in this room in preparation for eternal
Speaker 5 (01:03:27):
Life. Yeah.
Amy Hester (01:03:28):
That doesn't start upon Jesus' second return. It starts now. Yeah. You know, and I think that's just such a good reminder from my soul of like, ev every choice that I'm making, every temptation that I'm saying no to every like, burden that I'm carrying or walking with and through, um, one of my sisters, like, man, it's, it's gonna be worth it in the end, you know? Mm-Hmm. Um, yeah. Yeah,
Lauren King (01:03:52):
Yeah. The kingdom of God is at hand.
Amy Hester (01:03:55):
Mm-Hmm. It is
Lauren King (01:03:55):
At hand.
Julie Kotulek (01:03:56):
Mm mm So good. Well, I think this is where we land the plane, even though I would love to keep going, but thank both of you for being here and being so vulnerable. I'm, I think what I feel most heavily is that I'm just like really honored to call both of you friends and sisters and to-do Yeah. And to like have, I don't know, it's just really fun to sit and have this conversation with you two and to just like have a ton of
Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
Context. Yeah.
Julie Kotulek (01:04:25):
Um, both for the two of you and to feel like you have context for me. Mm-Hmm. and that in this room feeling really safe in this conversation. Just being super encouraging to me. So let's land, land the plane there. Thanks for listening. I'll leave you with a few upcoming dates. Stay tuned for our next episode, which is Holiness and Loss with our women's director at St. John, um, and some gals around her at St. John. And then Galatians registration is currently open and then women's retreat registration will open first week of January. Woo. Um, women's retreat will be on the weekend of March 7th through ninth. Um, we hope to see you there.
Lauren King (01:05:07):
We'll be
Julie Kotulek (01:05:07):
There, right Amy with us at some point. I'll be there.
Lauren King (01:05:09):
Yeah. We'll be there. Come hang with us. We'll have so much fun. Hey, bye. Bye Aios.