In this second episode of our two-episode mini-series, Purshia Gambles (South Women's & Groups Director), Annette Haralson (North Women's & Equipping Director), and, host, Alison Mezger (Central Women's Ministry Director) sit down to continue the conversation about joy and what pursuit of it looks like.
Welcome back to The Women's Cast. That's short for podcast, forecast, our cast of characters, and all the casts in between. This year our Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone is focusing on the theme of JOY.
In this second episode of our two-episode mini-series, Purshia Gambles (South Women's & Groups Director), Annette Haralson (North Women's & Equipping Director), and, host, Alison Mezger (Central Women's Ministry Director) sit down to continue the conversation about joy and what pursuit of it looks like.
Stay tuned for Women’s Workshop registration opening on August 7! Registration for our Psalms study is officially open, and we have so many class options available. Sign up here.
Resources
The Things of Earth, by Joe Rigney
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Women's Cast once again. I'm Alison Mezger. I serve as the Central Women's Ministry Director here at the Austin Stone. I'm so glad you're joining us for the second part of our initial conversation about Joy, which if you miss the first episode, is our ministry theme for this upcoming year. Why joy? Well, at first it may sound like an easy topic, like we talked about a little bit in our first episode. The encouragement to choose joy is all around us. We're told in Galatians five that joy is a fruit of the spirit. We know from Hebrews two that Jesus pursued joy, but if we're honest with ourselves, the human experience is a lot more complicated than just deciding to be joyful. End of story, I said in episode one, and it's just as true today. I believe that because of who Jesus is and what he's done, I can have joy in all the circumstances in my life and look forward to an eternity characterized by perfect joy in him.
(01:10):
Guys, I know these things, but sometimes I don't feel joyful. Sometimes I don't know how to make sense of the emotion of joy when experienced alongside all the other feelings. Sometimes I don't know what obeying the command to rejoice should look like. I believe in joy, and I long for it, but my experience of it is complicated and broken because I am. The reality is a life of joy demands our pursuit and also our honesty. So that's where we're picking up today. We're gonna try to be brutally honest again about joy, about what we know, about what we don't, about what we actually feel, and about the questions we have. In my conversation with Julie and Christine, we talked about how we define joy and some of how we experience it. And today, I'm glad to be joined by Persia and Annette. We're still gonna be honest, but we're gonna focus on our pursuit of joy. What gets in the way, what is pursuing it even supposed to look like, and what are we invited into as believers? So, welcome back you guys, Persia. Annette, why don't you introduce yourselves to the women listening. Hello,
Speaker 2 (02:19):
. I'm, I'm Persia. Um, and I am the equipping and women's director for our south congregation. Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Great to be here. By the time, well, not quite when we listen to this, but pretty shortly after y'all are gonna be in a new building. .
Speaker 2 (02:35):
That's my reason for joy. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And just I give you some joy right now. That's good. Indeed. That's good. Um, Persia, quick question. What is your, um, go-to summer treat right now? Mm. Because it is 157 degrees outside.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
My go-to summer treat right now is air conditioning . But, um, but every June, Uhhuh , except for this one, sadly, dairy Queen has a, has a blizzard of the month, Uhhuh , and it's, it's, you know, the drumstick, like the Yeah,
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
The cone drums. They make a drumstick blizzard. And when I found out about it, I got it. This is a confession. I guess I got it every day after I learned about it because it was just so good. And then they had like piece, like chocolate dipped waffle pieces, like on top of it, and I thought if you could just sell like a bag of that, I would take it. But yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Those are two, those are two good ones I had not thought about. I mean, air conditioning, yes.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
That's more of like a common grace in this type of situation,
Speaker 1 (03:33):
But That's right. Yeah. Annette, what about you introduce yourself and then also what's your, uh, what's your summer treat right now?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Hey, I'm Annette Harrelson. I am the equipping and women's ministry director up at our North congregation. And my go-to for the summer to beat the heat is to always have cubed watermelon in my refrigerator. Okay. I am constantly going to 'cause it just, I mean, it just feels like a deep dive in a cool pool on my tongue every time I pop one of those in my mouth. So I'm constantly, you, my refrigerator is never bare of cubed watermelon.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Okay. Do you salt it? Isn't that a thing?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
So if I have like a big slab of a watermelon, I will salt it. Okay. But if it's just cubed watermelon, no, I won't go through
Speaker 1 (04:22):
The trouble of that. Okay. Have you done the frozen grapes thing?
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I have done those before.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I feel like that has the same, like, just cold like burst of, you
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Know. Yeah. I, I mean, I, I did go through a period a few years ago where I was doing those, but I, watermelon is just more accessible, I think. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's fun. Okay. Well, I need to know before we get into kind of the, the bigger thoughts, feeling questions. Um, the first thought that comes to your mind when we talk about joy. Like what is that, what's that image? Um, what's that memory or visual or just thought that that pops into your head?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I think of like a deep guttural laugh. Uh, yeah. You know, like when someone, like really quiet people that make jokes Yeah. Is so funny to me because they'll say it to someone that like, if that person told, they'll be like, no, they, they didn't say that. You know? Yeah. Like, Julie on our team, listen to the other episode. Julie is the master of this because she'll do something and we'll be like in a meeting and she'll like wink at me or something and, and I'll be like, you, you did it. You did a thing that was funny, but no, and no one else saw it . So that, that's really funny to me. That is
Speaker 1 (05:30):
True, but okay. The big belly laugh. Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah. Uhhuh , like where your stomach hurts. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
That's good. That's a good image for joy. Yeah. What about you, Annette?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Oh gosh. The, the thing that comes to mind is it's fresh because I just experienced a, a good afternoon of it this week is, uh, a, a extended period of time full of Persia, iss what I like to
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Call them. Oh, wow. They
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Are, they are things that Persia gamble does, you know, with like mannerisms or expressions or accents that she'll just break out all of a sudden. So this week I got to go bowling with Persia and I loved it. Like, every time she would make a strike, she would do this movement where she would like point down into the side a little bit and she pressed her lips together. And I mean, it was just like, that's Persia is a, that
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Was my LeBron James impersonation. .
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah. Persia is a, it's a caricature of herself. . It's pretty great . You
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Are, you are. But every time I see one I'm just like, it just, I added to the list this burst of joy within me. It's like, that's Persia.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Bless you. Deshaun. .
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Oh gosh. . That's what Persia calls me. It's my middle name. .
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I love hearing what initially pops into y'all's heads for those images, um, because, and, and you guys dunno this yet, but it's, it's just so different, um, person to person. Like what we initially think of what popped into Christine's head was plants . Like, I like the, just the growth of like, the fresh growth of like a little plant, um, is what she thinks of with joy or what initially popped into her head. Um, Julie mentioned a very specific friend that kind of embodies joy to her. Uh, the image that popped into my head that I shared with them was like a, a toddler with a balloon. Mm. Kind of a, or, or, and then these kind of got, uh, converged into one idea. It was like a, a kid who's given a box to play with and it's like the best thing in the world, even though it's just like a big refrigerator box.
(07:24):
Yeah. But yeah. Hadn't thought of like the big laugh, um, hadn't thought about all the, the Persia. So those are, those are definitely, they, they, they're attaching onto something, right? Mm-hmm. , there's something at the root of all those that it makes sense. Like even if you hear someone else's example, you're like, yeah, that does sound, that looks joyful. Mm-hmm. to me. So we spent a lot of time, me and Christine just kind of trying to wrap our heads around honestly, like, what, what is joy? What's the difference between joy and happiness? What's the world say? What does the church say? We won't rehash all of that, but I would like to give you guys each an opportunity to just kind of give us like, outside of that image, like when you think about joy, what are kind of the main aspects of it? We're gonna spend the majority of our conversation talking about what gets in the way of our joy and what it looks like to pursue joy. But give us just kind of your like, very casual working definition of joy. What do you think about it? Mm-hmm. ,
Speaker 3 (08:19):
For me, I think it's this, it's this sense that I get when I feel like everything just comes together and is right. I think about when like, I'm reading scripture and I will read some truth that just suddenly centers me and grounds me in that this is how it should be, this is truth, this is right. And, um, I had this experience the other day where I just read something and I was so surprised by this reaction. It was just this visceral, I mean, I just started crying, but they were the good kind of tears. And it was just like, everything just came together and it felt right. Or like when I'm in a worship service and I just, just suddenly overwhelms me how this is what we were created to do to worship our king. This feels right. This feels like home. So for me, that, that's like the experience of joy. So it's not just a happiness, it's something that just clicks within me that just says, this is it.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
That's really great. I love that. What about you Persia?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Uh, not quite as deep, but I, I immediately, uh, definitively think of the great theologian Kendrick Lamar in the song where he says, we gonna be all right. He says something else right before it. Mm-hmm. Don't listen to the song and think I'm recommending that , but like, just the fact that transcendent of circumstance, it's okay. 'cause God is good and, and that has a, a, an uplifting nature to it that is not ill-informed. Like it's not, um, ignoring all the stuff going on outside or in our lives or in our relationships, but it's aware of it, but it's, it's more aware of a, a greater reality. Yeah. And that's who God is. Yeah. And who he is to us who love Jesus. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
. Yeah. I love that both. Yeah. There's, there's a, it's simple, but it's not naive mm-hmm. to like, what is, what context you're in. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's great. Well, both of you kind of, you know, were talking about something that does have a, a an emotional component to it. Like, this isn't just mental Right. It's not just in a certain ascent of understanding. Yeah. There's, it's an emotion, it's a felt experience, but y'all are both getting to I think, some of that just mysterious element of it that I think makes it kind of hard to wrap our heads around. Which, you know, perge of what you said, of if it can be, if it can exist regardless of circumstance, and there is sort of a, it can be in conflict with other things that you're thinking, feeling, experiencing. And I think that would be the same for what you said, Annette. Like, there's this understanding and, and, and, and worshipful experience of like something being really right and true and that, that bringing that emotion Yeah. But that doesn't ignore the fact that it hasn't come to, its like fullest. Like things are not restored yet. Yeah. Right. It feels like home. And yet if you were to open your eyes in those moments, you'd look around and know that you're not fully there yet.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Mm-hmm. . And I think that is a really great face. It feels like home. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I, I think that is just this, this sort of intangible element of the things that bring you joy when, when suddenly you just feel like, ugh, this is belonging, this is, this is safety, this is, um, you know, where I was created to exist. Yeah. You know, that sort of thing. Feeling of home. That's a really
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Great way of describing it. Yeah. I mean, a a lot more to tease out in, in that thread, but I think one of the things that came up with Julie and Christine was the idea that at the end of the day, just like Psalm 1611 says that in his presence, there's fullness of joy that we, we have to start bringing the conversation together of what does it look like to pursue joy, um, but also how is that connected to what does it look like to pursue Jesus and be in his presence mm-hmm. . And if our whole idea of eternity and being home, the home that we were really created to be in, where everything is perfect, if that is characterized by his presence, then it's no surprise that our experience of joy, even in this life is, is deeply connected to it's a presence with Jesus.
(12:41):
Yeah. And, and that starts to, I think, be a really helpful Yeah. A hopeful framework for me. And look, what does it look like to pursue joy that's not fleeting mm-hmm. , and yet also doesn't ignore the things that are, that are the common graces that bring joy that he's given, but how do those point to his presence? Like it's somehow all wrapped up in, like you said, this feeling of being home or this feeling of being with him. That, that ultimately we have to reconcile that with our experience of joy, otherwise it won't look any different True. Than what the world offers us. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. So again, we don't have a textbook definition yet that we're working around, but I think we all have a sense of, of what we're talking about, what gets in the way of it. Like what are the things that you experience that you see in the lives of, of friends and family members in the communities you're in that seem to be the man? If we could tackle these couple of things, , um, those are the enemies of our joy. Hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
A lot of, I, I think of a lot of things, you know, because like we live in a, in a broken world and there's lots of things that if they were perfect, you know, it, it would just make everything, you know. But I, many people probably know this, but I, I have diabetes and that is the, the main thing that I, when I, when I sit and assess life, and I'm like, if one thing could just be like, gone, Hmm. Uh, that would be it. Mm-hmm. . But I, but I guess that has also been a huge, uh, like threshold to joy. 'cause I've had to fight for joy and Jesus despite it, or, or a cognizant of it, I guess. But I think of that I think of brokenness and relationships with my family. Mm-hmm. , you know, and, and how I want there to be peace with me and my family, but then with within their relationships with one another, um, that I can't control. Yeah. And so things that I can't control and things that I wish were different. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
So putting those in kind of some broad categories, it's suffering difficult circumstances Yeah. Physically, relationally. Mm-hmm. . But those things being challenges to, do you think there, there are challenges to, to find joy in the midst of, to, to keep joy? Um, like what
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah. I, when, when I, when I feel joy is being stolen, I, I know that my, my heart, my mind is, is really probably focusing on those things really heavily. And there's usually a need to, to be like, okay, but I gotta turn this back around to what is, what is more true, you know? Um, but, but oftentimes I, I live in that much longer than I, than I wish I did, or than I think any of us should, especially if we do have an ultimate hope. Yeah. But yeah. Like, I think focusing on those things more often than I should.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah. Well, there's kind of two realities going on at the same time. You know, the very, like real temporal mm-hmm. , um, it is gonna end, but it's very real. Mm-hmm. like experience you have, like in your body with your family, all those things. And then kind of, we have to remind ourselves that there is this true bigger already and not yet reality. Yeah. Yeah. So it is interesting to think about you having to be present in both, but like focus remind yourself true of the reality of the second one. True. Yeah. Annette, what about you? What, what are the things you think get in the way?
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah, I mean, anybody who knows me knows that I am a detail-oriented perfectionist. And so, so many times unrealistic expectations have a tendency to, to rob me of joy. I, for example, my oldest son is, is getting married at the end of this month. And I have so much joy that he found a godly wife who loves him. This is going to be a celebration of what God has done in bringing them together. And I'm so excited for that. But just this week I tried on my dress for the wedding, and guess what? It doesn't look good. And I'm just like, okay. You know, I had this expectation that we are gonna go and have this great family portrait because, you know, we're all gonna be together in this joyous occasion, and my dress looks scrappy, you know? And I'm just like, that is robbing me of joy because I am, I'm, it's not, it's not gonna look perfect.
(17:11):
It's not gonna look perfect. And, but that's my, that's a wrong expectation that my physical appearance is going to contribute to the joy of the moment. But yeah, that's where I am. And my mind won't stop like freaking out over the fact that, oh, gosh, am I gonna get a new dress? Or whatever. And so these expectations and these details that I don't need to focus on are the things that are robbing me of joy because I am focusing on them. And I have the hardest time not doing that. You know, overcoming that, that sinful tendency of my heart. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah. Okay. You guys hit on a couple big ones. We've, we've suffering kinda circumstances, really idols and lesser loves. Yeah. I mean, that's really what you're unpacking and that obviously those are two big things that are going to, that we're gonna have to at least be aware of if we are going to actively pursue joy, whatever, whatever that's going to look like. Um, a few others that come to mind, and I'd love to have you guys just respond to these. How, how do you see these, um, in your life and others? We've got just discontent or distraction mm-hmm. , I think even like, not even knowing, being so numbed to, to things and, and, and, and faith that we're not even kind of aware of opportunities for joy. Mm-hmm. , um, sin and un holiness. And I think that's an interesting one to talk about, because so often we want to, we want to pit pursuit of happiness and a pursuit of holiness against each other.
(18:42):
Mm-hmm. . And so they're, that they are at odds and they're not, I think selfishness. Mm-hmm. , um mm-hmm. , you know, that, that's a very counterintuitive thing for us when we think about the, the pursuit of joy on my behalf. And yet somehow that in a gospel kind of flipped on its headway has to be wrapped up in the serving of other people. Yeah. I know When I'm selfish, like, I, I will, I will rub myself of joy even if I think I'm chasing joy. Yeah. Tho those are just a few other kind of like bigger buckets that come to mind. What of those stand out to you as far as experiences you've had or things that you're seeing in the lives of, of friends? Mm-hmm. ,
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Uh, definitely the, the discontent one and then the, the, you know, unlikely war between holiness and happiness mm-hmm. . 'cause it's easy to buy the lie that it would be easier if I had this, or if I was married, or if I, if I was married, if I had the kid, if, or if, if I did have the kid, if the kid would act better, you know, whatever that, that next thing is. It's easy to think that joy's on the other side of that. Yeah. When not to say that there, it wouldn't be easier or, you know, there, there would be some sort of like affirmation of like, oh, this is better, you know? Mm-hmm. , but like, if, if, if joy can be found before that thing is granted, which in Jesus I believe that it can, um, then it proves it's something that we don't need. You know, it's, it's a want. And so I think of that, and I also, I was reading James yesterday, and the first part of it talks about wisdom. And in preparation for this podcast, like I, something I wrote in the, in the margin was like, wisdom is the knowledge of God's goodness in any circumstance. Mm-hmm. But I think in the house of joy, I think that truth is a pillar there too. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah. That's
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Good. You know, like, it's, it's like part of my ability to have to be joyful or full of joy is to know that like, though all that stuff is happening, though I don't have the things that I want, God is still holding onto me and he's still good and he's the one holding all of this. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Like, there's just some, some resolve of comfort in that to me.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah. Yep. No, that's good. That's good. I like, I like the idea of, as we kind of build our understanding of joy, that there are these, there's certain pillars mm-hmm. to it. I think one of the things that we, that, that Julie and Christina and I talked about was the role of gratitude mm-hmm. , um, in joy. And I, I think that even specifically to what you were saying about, um, discontent and Annette, what you were talking about with these expectations, man, both of those are connected to whether or not we are, we are taking on a posture of gratitude mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , which is something that we can like actively decide to do Yeah. In the hopes that it helps us, like actually pursue Jesus and pursue joy. Mm-hmm. . True. But yeah, I think that that wisdom piece of knowing that, believing that he is good, right? And that, that goes back to like, what are we putting our hope in? Where do we believe our strength comes from? Like the, just that right understanding of who he is in all circumstances, that has to be at least a component of kind of, that the building blocks of, of a joyful life. True. I love that. Yeah. Annette, anything?
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Oh, yeah. I mean, the selfishness one really smacks me in the face. Yeah. 'cause I, I'm an introvert. Um, there's this cartoon that I found, oh gosh, it was probably a decade ago that just so embodies me some of the times is this person that is enclosed in this hamster ball, and they're huddled down on one side of it because there's another person who's an extrovert who's trying to get their arm in there and get to them. And, and the person's like, ah, get away. Get away. Because an introvert is drained when they are engaging with other people, their energy is drained. It's not that they don't like people. Sure. Yeah. It's just that every time they come into contact with other people, they're drained. And so as an introvert, I have this tendency to be selfish about that draining experience of being with other people.
(22:52):
But the thing is, is that I will never find joy in isolation. Hmm. Because that's not who our God is. Our trying God is always forever, eternally in community. And that's where joy is found. That's good. And so I will never have joy in isolation. I have to fight my tendency to want to be selfish and isolate so that I can actually get out and be in community, Christian community, loving community. Mm-hmm. people who remind me of what it is to be part of the family of God. Yeah. In order to find the joy that I'm actually wanting and thinking that I can get in isolation.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah. I love that. Okay. So yeah, definitely something that we need to keep talking about is the role of one another, right. The role community. Yeah. Um, I think it is important to, to make a distinction. 'cause I know I need to hear this, that there's a difference between isolation and solitude. Yeah. And we do have a good model in scripture for, for seeking solitude. True. Um, and that that is something that regardless of introvert, extrovert, we, we all need mm-hmm. that's different than isolation because one has the, the, the solitude has the end goal of, of sort of quiet. So you can be still with God and being refilled so that you can go back into the world and isolation. So there's, there's a pursuit of him and ultimately others through that. And isolation is just a, a backing away. Oh yeah. It's just a pulling out, um, and saying, I don't need those things.
(24:25):
Yeah. So it's just, I think that's an important distinction to make. 'cause we, we all need some solitude mm-hmm. , but we do not need to live in isolation. Yeah. Sure. And that is gonna be a huge headwind to pursuing joy. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's good. Okay. So we've talked about some of the things that get in the way. What, what do you guys think about like, the active pursuit of it? I mean, I think what gets tricky, even when we talk about joy, is there's this emotional element to it. There is, it's a fruit of the spirit, which, um, leads us to think that it's not something because it's a gift of his. It's not something that in and of ourselves we can like fully conjure up. At the same time, we see commands throughout scripture for believers to rejoice. Um, which I love how Christine kind of helped us understand that, that it's a, a turning to or, or turning back to what gives you joy.
(25:16):
So there's a, it's a reminding herself. So it's not, rejoice isn't sort of translated Just, just be happy. Rejoice is like, re find your joy, re go back to him. He's the source of your joy. Which I think is a really, um, helpful way of understanding that. So we've got the command to rejoice. We've got that. It's an emotion. That's only the gift of the spirit. We've got that it's something that Jesus himself pursues. We know that God himself, I mean, Annette, you're talking about kind of the, the communal aspect or character of God in three persons. Like he's also described as blessed as a, as a joyful God. Right? So the joy of our Lord is our strength, and it's actually his joy. It's the fact that God being joyful in himself mm-hmm. is what gives us strength. So there's all of these elements, uh, of what joy is. And so, given that it's not just a belief, how do we pursue it? What does that actually look like? And we've got, uh, un holiness and selfishness and discontent and isolation and suffering, all these other things working against us. How do we pursue it?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Another image comes to mind. Great. I think of a, like, if you ever go camping, I don't. But, um, if for those that go camping, you have to set fires, you know, and, and you have like a bunch of like kindling, like twigs and leaves and sticks, whatever is required, the ingredients for a fire, I don't know. But when it's not lit, there's a part of you adding things to that and like trying to, you know, I don't know how a fire's made. Yeah. This is such, I, I just need that to be a right caveat . Like, someone's gonna listen to this and be like, well, you actually can take the kerosene. And then, and I'm like, I don't, that's not what I'm, but,
Speaker 1 (26:59):
And yet, this is your image, so keep going,
Speaker 2 (27:01):
.
(27:02):
That's true. I'm like, but I'm using it. Yeah. But, but when we add things to that kindling, the only one that can light the fire is God. You're right. It's, it's a, it's a fruit of the spirit. It's something that he grants us in his kindness, in his timing. But when we say no to sin willfully, when we decide to be content in Jesus alone, when we pursue spiritual disciplines, when we're regularly reminded in community who God is and, and why it's worthy to, to give our lives over to him, we're adding kindling to that. So that when, not if, but when God decides to grant us joy, it burns that much more brightly. Mm. Mm-hmm. . And so I, that's what comes to my mind, like in the pursuit of it to pursue God. You're not just doing it to get joy, but inevitably when you get God, you get joy. Mm-hmm. .
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Mm-hmm. . P that's so similar to what my answer is, because
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You know how to do fires.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
No. . No,
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I was gonna say she struggled at the beginning, but I loved how you wrapped that up.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
But no, what, what I was gonna say though is that if you want joy, you can't pursue joy. It's true. You have to pursue Jesus. 'cause when you try to pursue joy, you, you are automatically in danger of worshiping the thing rather than worshiping the author of joy. And it is only by worshiping the author of joy that you actually get joy. And that sounds so con counterintuitive, because we are hardwired to pursue the thing that we want rather than, than the source of the thing that we want. Because we think the thing is where it's at. But it's not so, it, it sounds so counterintuitive, but if you want joy, don't pursue joy, you gotta pursue Jesus instead. And, and I, you know, I say that, and I fall short of that so much in my, in myself, because I lose sight of the fact that, that it is found in a person rather than just, you know, these objects or emotions or something like that.
(29:12):
But yeah, I wanna be the type of person that constantly understands that and lives in that reality. But, you know, but I do fall short. But I totally agree with Persia that, you know, the things that, that focus your heart on Jesus, or the things that actually allow that to start manifesting your life, like being in his word, communing with him through prayer, um, solid times of solitude where he's actually your focus and you're not, it's not just yourself. It's actually focused on him finding it in, in the worship experience, like I said at the beginning. You know, coming together as a body of people worshiping him, serving one another in ways that mean, there are so many times where just actually selfless, selflessly pouring myself out for another, without getting any other benefit, is a thing that actually bubbles up joy. Because I, I'm being like my savior. I'm being like Jesus. Because that's, that's what he did. That's what he just totally embodies. That, that selfless service that he came to be for us. So, yeah. I mean, I need that reminder. I know, I, I do that. I can't pursue joy. I have to pursue Jesus. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
. Okay. Annette, I love everything you just said. And also, I want to push back a little bit. Okay. 'cause we're having an honest conversation. Yeah. So, my, my, it, it, here's my question. Every, everything you said about the, the dangers of pursuing joy and isolation of Jesus, and that being such a clear pathway to, you know what, I'm, I will, I will end up worshiping my kids and they will be the source of my joy instead of him. If, if I'm really, if I'm thinking about in the moment, what is bringing me happiness in like an easily accessible way, that, that makes a ton of sense. Mm-hmm. , and, and I think it's rooted in their right understanding that, uh, that that outside of Jesus, nothing else lasts like out. There's nothing else purely good. Like everything that we know about the gospel and eternity is wrapped up in like, he is the ultimate source of all those things.
(31:26):
He is life. Mm-hmm. , right. And he is fullness of joy. And yet, I wonder if we're missing a piece or if there's, um, and again, this is I think why the, the topic is so tricky mm-hmm. Is I think about the process of sanctification and being conformed to his image over time. Mm-hmm. . And I hope that I look more like Jesus than I did 20 years ago. And I hope that 20 years from now I look more like him. And part of that is that my heart will be more inclined to the things of God as he refines me. And I will love the things that he loves more than what my heart and flesh on my own would love now. And so in that respect, I wonder what chasing joy, chasing joy for me later in life looks very different than if I had said, I'm, I'm just chasing whatever I'm, I'm, uh, happy in, or what I think will bring me joy.
(32:19):
Mm-hmm. early in my faith, or before I became a Christian mm-hmm. . Right. So I, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if there is a balance in everything you just said, which I believe is true. And also I, I'm, I'm, I think I'm wondering if I can actually look at the things that bring me joy and not divorce them from God as the source, but still not just the, the freedom to enjoy those. 'cause I, I, I think you would agree that there are, there are common graces in us being able to enjoy the gifts of God, right? Mm-hmm. , and, and James is clear about that mm-hmm. , right. We're able to enjoy those things. But in terms of actually pursuing them, I don't know. I feel some, I feel some tension around that. And again, I think the reason it has to be connected to pursuit of him is, you know, in John 15, Jesus talks about a bang, his father's commandments remaining his love. But the purpose of that, he says, I've told you these things so that you'll be filled with my joy and your joy will overflow. Mm-hmm. . And so he's making obviously a really clear connection between obedience and being, um, abiding in the father's love with joy. But I don't know if it's clear enough to say that we, we don't pursue the things that give us joy. I don't know. Help, help me wrestle that out a little bit.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah. I, I, I totally understand what what you were saying, and I don't, I, I, I actually don't think that we are too far off Yeah. In what we are saying, because I, I, I think, I think really what more that I'm focusing on is that when we, when we make joy our focus Sure. That, that, that is focusing on the lesser thing rather than the greater thing. Think about it in these terms. Joy is a fruit of the spirit. It's a fruit. And so it's a product. So when we are wanting an apple, apple, you know, we can definitely go to the grocery store and we can buy an apple, but what about if we focus on growing an apple tree in our yard mm-hmm. and actually cultivating that and having that spring up into, into a tree of never ending apples mm-hmm.
(34:38):
that are the source, or, um, that the tree is the source of it. It's more along those lines. If I pursue an apple and I go to the grocery store and I grab that apple, that's not gonna last. Sure. It's a one off. But if I pursue the growth of the tree Yeah. The source of it, then I'm going to have an unending supply of apples in my backyard. Yeah. That will last for, you know, as long as the tree is there. And, and so when I focus on the source on Jesus, and on cultivating my relationship with him, then I have this unending source of joy that then bubbles up within my life.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah. That's good. Okay. Yeah. And I think even that imagery is helpful because the, you know, to kind of play that out, the, the, if I, if I were to see a trail of apples, I, I, knowing where those come from mm-hmm. , I should probably follow them knowing that that's the tree is there. Yeah. You know, and so I'm, I'm kind of thinking about the, the worldly gifts, the, the community, the people that I know bring me joy and kind of just wrestling through, is it wrong to enjoy those things? And I think we, we know inherently that it, that it must not be right, but where does that joy sort of terminate mm-hmm. and where is there that recognition of, of its source? And so it's, it's both like, go for the tree and you'll get an apple, but also if you find an apple, like follow it to the tree. Yes. Absolutely. Is that Absolutely. Is that maybe a way of kind of merging Absolutely. What we were both saying? Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Mm-hmm. Peria, you have something to add? I
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Do. I think of,
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Uh, are you gonna start a fire under our ?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
We just take some kindling again and
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Just know,
Speaker 2 (36:19):
While you guys were talking, both of you said incredible things. Uh, but I also think of, you know, John Piper's like flagship statement that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Yeah. And so in that book, desire, and God, he talks about like, there are a number of things that can spur joy in us or elation in us. Um, but the thing that makes it distinctly Christian is that for that we enjoy that thing to, to, to the nth degree, but that it leads us to worship. Yeah. That it leads us to that, that comforting feeling of like, God did this mm-hmm. , like he's the one that puts this together. And so I think both of you, like, I think if, if John Piper was here right now, he'd be like, oh, I love being here with y'all, women talking about God . But he would, he would agree with both of your stances because he, he would say, yes, you go to God to get joy, even though God's the point. But then you're also like, but what if I already enjoy these things yet they lead me to God? You know, I think he'd look at that and say, so both of you? Yes. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
. Yeah. Well, and I think that's why this, this topic is so fun. Mm. Um, dare I say joyful . Ooh,
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Roll credits. Yeah. .
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Um, but, but seriously, because it's not, it's, it's, it's complicated. True, mm-hmm. , you know, and I don't know, I want to like do it. Right. Which feels silly when you're kind of talking about something like this, because on one hand, like we've said, it's, it's hard to control. And yet I, I want my pursuit of it to mm-hmm. , um, number one, to not lead me astray. True. Right? Mm-hmm. true. Um, and to not lead me into to finding joy and contentment in things that aren't of him. Yeah. Um, and that will fade. And at the same time, balance that with, oh man, what about these things that he has given? Yeah. Yeah. And so how, how does all that work out together? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Because I think one of the things that, um, we kind of touched on at the beginning, you, you did Allison that just really wraps into this, is that, um, most of the time Joy surprises us because it's not something that you can manufacture mm-hmm. . And so if we realize that mysteriousness of it, that intangible nature of it, and recognize that, you know, kind of like Bill Murray and Groundhog Day, where he tries to manufacture all the circumstances with the, with the girl that he's trying to have a relationship with, and he can't do it. But when he finally lets go and he just becomes, you know, the, this better version of himself than suddenly it happens. It's kind of like that when we, when we like UNC Unclench, you know, and, and start to actually pursuing Jesus and pursuing the, his good gifts in light of who he is and as a true way to worship him, as the giver of all good things, um, then suddenly Joy surprises us.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yeah. And it really is helpful to think about joy having a residing place. Like in his presence, there is fullness of joy. Like that's a, there's a, there's an indication of location there. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , like it's in there, this is where it's found. Yeah. This is where you, like, it's in his presence. There it is. And so if that's where we go, right? If the spirit is where we, that's who we go to mm-hmm. , that's where the gift comes from, that that helps shape, I think what pursuit looks like. Mm-hmm. , I mean, I think for me, the, the last big question in that, because even in that I, that makes me so excited, I'm like, okay, if the answer to finding joy, right? Is that I, I can't manufacture it, but I can pursue Jesus. I'm like, okay, I can wrap my head around that statement.
(39:57):
And then I think the thing that it immediately gets hit with is what about, what about seasons of sadness and suffering? And so how do those things coexist? And, you know, I'd love to, to hear y'all's thoughts on that, but I, it's, I say this and it sounds like maybe too simple of an answer, but it's what I think we have to kind of bank on, which is our, God was perfectly joyful mm-hmm. , and yet he also, I mean Jesus, um, in Hebrews too, like he, he pursued joy. Mm-hmm. , like that was what was for the joy set before, for the joy set before him hindered the cross. Mm-hmm. And yet we also know that Jesus wept and was a man of sorrows mm-hmm. . And so he was able to hold all that intention. So I don't want to oversimplify what this pursuit looks like, and Okay, now that we've said, just pursue Jesus and you'll be joyful.
(40:49):
That sounds, again, it's like, it's simple, but let's not be naive to the mystery of it. Yeah. And not forget to keep looking to him as the only one who's able to perfectly hold all that intention. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , um, which I know I need to be reminded of, so that when moments or seasons of sadness or grief or numbness or discontent happen that there's not, they don't also heap that doesn't heap shame as well as though I, I should always just be happy. Like, just the over simplicity. Just, just choose happiness. Mm-hmm. , like, just push this aside, put on a smiley face and be happy. Like, I don't think that's what, that's not the model we see in Christ because of how he's to, to be all of those things for us. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
So I think it's fascinating when you look at scripture, never once in scripture do I read that Jesus laughed.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Hmm.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
I'm sure that he did, but that's just not something that's recorded for us in scripture. Mm-hmm. That fascinates me, because you're right. I mean, he is the most joyful person, most joyful human being that's ever walked the face of this earth. We know that, but it, that's, those, those moments are not recorded in scripture. Yeah. Instead we do, we see him as the man of sorrows weeping mm-hmm. and, and that, that needs to give us pause. Mm-hmm. that needs to actually help us to reorient our thinking. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Well, at a minimum that that joy doesn't necessarily look the way that we think it looks. Yeah. It doesn't mean I have to just be like giggly happy all the time. Yeah. If we're there to actually be still a deep, a deep abundant abiding joy. Right. Yeah. That's
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Good. I think I, I think of, um, when ge, when Mary and Martha come to Jesus and, and they're like, our brother died, you know mm-hmm. , and, and you know, he hears that he's about to die a couple days before that mm-hmm. , but he chooses to wait. And, and him knowing everything that is happening and is about to happen for me is such a, a, a reason to be able to, to know, like the sad days will come, but joy is on the other end of it. Mm-hmm. or even in the, in the midst of it. Yeah. Because right when he, he sees where they laid him, the people say, come see where they laid him Lord. And he, he gets a sense of everything that's going on. The, the despair of Lazarus's sisters, the, the, the fear of the disciples. Like, what the heck is going on?
(43:17):
And, and just like all the devastation of this man's life being gone, he weeps, but that's not because he's grieving that man, because he knows he's about to bring him back from the dead. Mm-hmm. . And so though I don't have the power to bring anybody back from the dead, I can know, I know the Jesus that can and does. And so I'm gonna weep with those who weep. I'm gonna weep for myself. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna feel the full weight of my sad feelings, but not because I'm a person without hope. Mm-hmm. , but because I, I have the person who, who is hope mm-hmm. , you know, and, and so I, I, over and over again, I, I keep getting the image of like Jesus weeping, although he knows he's about to bring somebody breakfast. Mm-hmm. He's about to perform this incredible miracle that only he can do. And because we are Christ followers, because we are in Christ, we may have the limited perspective of that this side of heaven, but we can still, we have the imagery of it in a really beautiful way. That's
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Good. That's
Speaker 1 (44:22):
So good. Well, guys, I'm, I'm sitting here looking at my computer and I've got like, you know, five pages of scripture references, notes and things that, I mean, we could spend forever just talking about how we see joy reflected in scripture. And I mean, everything from it being a gift to it being the purpose of hope by the Holy Spirit's power, which is in Romans 15, that there is this communal aspect of it again, which, and that, you know, we've, we've talked about that Jesus in John 16 promises that that mourning over his death will be turned into joy. Mm-hmm. , I mean, what a what a what a way to kind of encapsulate all of this, like the, in, in the worldly, since the most tragic thing that has ever happened, the most wrong thing that has ever happened is the most right thing.
(45:13):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. And the thing that should cause us the most grief is the thing that should cause us the most joy. Like, if that is not a mysterious picture of how all of this fits together, I, I can't think of a better one. Um, and those are from Jesus' words himself. Mm-hmm. . So it makes me excited to continue to unpack this, uh, over the course of the next year through our Bible studies and, and different events and, and I hope just conversations in our communities, you know, whether we're gathered in groups of two or 200 mm-hmm. , um, I, I really, I know we all want personally to experience joy and it, it's worthy of, of it's, you know, he is worth pursuing. And, and joy is a byproduct of that I think is, is worth pursuing for ourselves. Not to mention the beautiful apologetic, but that gives to a world that's desperately seeking happiness.
(46:03):
Yeah. At a minimum. Oh yeah. Desperately seeking to be and entertained and comforted. And we have something so much richer and so much deeper. So I'm just really excited to get, to continue down this journey with you guys and the rest of the team and, and hopefully just the, the women of our church. Thank you guys for being here today. Annette, thanks for letting me push back a little bit. I think we came to a really, a fuller understanding of, of how some of these things fit together. We just did theology together. That's right. , that brings me a lot of joy. That does to me too. . All right, friends, like I said, a lot more coming on this topic throughout the rest of the year, but don't wait on us, right. Sit down with a friend. Um, sit down with your, your accountability partner or your spouse or your roommate or small group and just start to chew on this stuff.
(46:48):
Get out your bibles, get out your journal. Spend some time with Jesus and just processing on your own what brings you joy. How do those things point you to Jesus? What are the things that you know and believe about God from scripture that bring you joy, that maybe you don't spend enough time? I know I don't, we don't spend enough time just meditating on those things. We've only tapped the surface. I wanna remind you that we've got opportunities coming up for you to dig in deeper with us on this topic. But, but in just broader, um, study of scriptures and in communities, we've got the Women's Workshop with Elizabeth Woodson on September 16th. Registration opens August 7th. We are gonna be studying through a survey of the Psalms, uh, this fall, starting at the end of September. Registration for that is already open. You will not want to miss this study if you are wrestling with not only kind of the, the big story of scripture, but getting to understand that through the lens of poetry and song and the combination of all these different emotions that we see in the Psalms, it's really gonna be a wonderful seven weeks.
(47:55):
So I'd encourage you to sign up for that and we'll end with a fun giveaway. Um, if you've been listening, you can text us your name and email address to 5 1 2 8 5 6 5 2 8 3. So 8 5 6 5 2 8 3. And one of you gal is gonna win a free ticket to Women's Workshop. We love you. We hope to see you soon. Good day. Bye.