On this episode, a couple of lay leaders get together to talk about their experience with our 2 Corinthians and Joshua Bible studies.
Welcome back to The Women’s Cast. That’s short for podcast, forecast, our cast of characters, and all the casts in between. This year, we’re focusing on the theme of strength as a ministry.
On this episode, a couple of lay leaders get together to talk about their experience with our 2 Corinthians and Joshua Bible studies. Our host, Alison Mezger (Central Women’s Ministry Director), sits down with Jenna Homan (Downtown partner) and Denise Stephens (West deacon and partner) for a reflection on what the Lord has done throughout their time as leaders in these studies over this past year. Happy listening!
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Alison Mezger:
Hey, friends. Welcome back to The Women's Cast. I'm your host, Alison Mezger, and today's episode is one of my favorites because at the heart of it, we are just celebrating. And who doesn't love a good party? Today, I'm joined by two friends to help me reflect on and celebrate God's faithfulness to us through two books of the Bible that we've studied this past year in women's ministry.
But before I introduce them, let me give you a quick overview of where we've been these past nine months. Each year, we intentionally select a ministry focus just to help guide our plans for the year, and this year we've been focusing on Christ's strength in our weakness. Everything that we've done up until this point from our gospel fluency at Women's Workshop to Women's Retreat, talking about Jesus as our refuge. All of these things have pointed to Christ's strength for us. Our Bible studies have been intentionally selected to help support our desire to learn and grow deeper into this truth, deeper into an understanding that we don't have to be strong all the time because Jesus is our strength.
In the fall, we studied through 2nd Corinthians, and we got a front row seat to the Apostle Paul really flipping the narrative of culture on its head by challenging their view of suffering. Paul taught us that our weakness actually aids us in accessing God's presence and power in our life rather than being an indication of failure. In fact, embracing our weakness is actually the thing that frees us from our own attempts at power in order to run into God's comfort, harness His strength, and give Him the glory for the sufficient God that He is to us.
And then just a few weeks ago, we wrapped up our study through the Book of Joshua where God's people get to enter the long awaited Promise Land, but things aren't as smooth sailing as we might initially think they would be. While our God is faithful to uphold His promises, He's also faithful to uphold His justice. And the ongoing brokenness of humanity is evident throughout the pages of Joshua, but in His goodness, our brokenness doesn't get the last word. His faithfulness does. No amount of sin can cause God to fracture His word and character. He is a present refuge to us because He's promised to be.
Guys, there's so much more I could say, but I don't want to do anything else without introducing these two friends sitting with me here. So without further ado, I'm so glad to be joined by Denise Stevens and Jenna Homan, and we're excited to talk about Bible studies this past year. Denise, let me start with you.
Denise Stevens:
Okay.
Alison Mezger:
Introduce yourself to the ladies listening.
Denise Stevens:
All right. Well, I'm Denise Stevens. I go to West Campus. I've been around Austin Stone for
Alison Mezger:
A millennia.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah, a very long time. Yeah, since the beginning minus two years. And so yeah, my kids have grown up at Austin Stone and my husband, George, and I have gone from downtown to west, and I have loved watching our church grow, I have loved watching myself grow, and it's been fun to be able to be a part of women's ministries, writing women's studies, just using the gifts God has given me, and they're sometimes unique and nerdy, and so I'm thankful for a place to put them and live them out.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Well, we're super thankful for you, Denise. What Denise hasn't shared is that for the past, Denise, I don't know how many years, 5, 6, 7, you've been an instrumental part at us writing and teaching Bible studies, initially, just for women, and now they're used really across our church in a variety of different environments.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
And so it's been really fun to get to a walk alongside you and see how God has opened that door for you to use your gifts. What you were initially just doing out of your own practice of study, and then practice of study to teach in environments that you had been interested with, and now that gets to influence a lot more broadly across our church, and it really is a gift, so.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it started in classrooms at Austin High Downtown when that's all we had.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Denise Stevens:
And then, yeah, it just grew in ways that I would've never imagined God moving. So, super fun.
Alison Mezger:
Okay, so thank you, Denise. We're also joined by Jenna Homan. Jenna, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jenna Homan:
Hi, I'm Jenna. I am a partner at the downtown campus, and I've been going to the Stone for about four years, now.
Alison Mezger:
All right. And involvement with Bible studies up until now, because we didn't just invite you in off the street.
Jenna Homan:
That's fair. I would say if there's a Bible study or we're studying a book at the Bible at the Stone, I am there. I've been to every single one since Covid.
Alison Mezger:
Okay.
Jenna Homan:
And I'm not sure if they existed before then, but I have gone to every single one of them. They're my favorite things. I'm always one of the first five to sign up for them, because I'm like, oh, here's the link. Here's my money. You know? But I'm a huge fan.
Alison Mezger:
Why is that? We'll get to the what should people know later, after we talk about the text, but what's the draw for you?
Jenna Homan:
I think the draw for me is I am not naturally good at studying the Bible, if I'm being honest. The Lord gives gifts and the Lord doesn't give certain gifts, and I don't have that gift. Denise has it, and I'm so grateful for her gift. But sitting down, I really need the help and the guides are so helpful with the reaps, and the guided questions are just so great. And I think that helps me, and I think I gain more out of these Bible studies than I do trying to do it by myself. And so, know your strengths, know your weaknesses.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, man.
Jenna Homan:
My strength is signing up for the class. My weakness is being able to study the Bible by myself, so.
Alison Mezger:
There you go. Sounds like you've been given the gift of faithfulness. Oh, which is just to show up, right?
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's awesome.
Denise Stevens:
And what's super fun is we get to have classes at West that are Downtown and West combined.
Jenna Homan:
Yes.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Denise Stevens:
So Jenna goes to Downtown and I go to West, but we know each other because-
Jenna Homan:
Yes.
Denise Stevens:
We've had combined classes.
Jenna Homan:
Yes.
Denise Stevens:
So that's been super exciting and super fun.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, you guys have some actual overlap.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah [inaudible 00:06:17] .
Alison Mezger:
Outside of our little podcast room.
Jenna Homan:
We do.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Super fun. Okay. Well, I want to jump in. I know we're talking about two books of the Bible. They, in some ways, couldn't be more different. We've got a letter written by Paul, we've got an Old Testament narrative, there are some similar themes, which is part of why we selected them, but just reading them at face value, they're really different. I'd love to know from each of you what your initial thoughts were. Denise, from the conversations you and I have before we start a project, what were your initial thoughts when we started talking about 2nd Corinthians and Joshua? And then same for you, Jenna, you get these emails six months apart. What are you thinking as just a woman in our church about those two books in particular? Any initial reaction to those? Denise?
Denise Stevens:
Yeah. So for first of all, for writing 2nd Corinthians, I was excited to be on that project because, I guess three basic things. One is I think people read 1st Corinthians and know, oh, that's where those love verses that we say at the weddings are. And then they're like, but I never quite got to 2nd Corinthians. And so I felt bad for second Corinthians.
Alison Mezger:
There you go.
Denise Stevens:
It was like, 2nd Corinthians needs its own little spotlight. There was just a feeling or vibe in the culture that was very true of people choosing a speaker, a pastor that they were following when we're supposed to be following Jesus. And while that was happening in the culture, I didn't want that to be happening at our church. And we have a plural form of pastors who teach, and I love that so that we don't get focused on one. But I can still hear people talking like, oh, well, I like this guy over that guy. And it's like, no, they have different forms and different ways they speak, but they're both prayerful or they're all prayerful, and what we're following is Jesus, not any one of these men who are in the pulpit. And so I felt like 2nd Corinthians was very timely for that, that we don't need to follow a man. We need to follow the God Man, Jesus.
And then the third one, just talking about, yeah, strengths and weaknesses. And as much as we'd like to maybe say that we don't believe in this, if you're saved, then you're so blessed and God's going to give you all the things you want. We still actually functionally live that out. And so I love 2nd Corinthians for that, where it's, that just blows up in your face because Paul's like, yeah, that's not what it means. That is not a promise given to you that if you love Jesus, everything works out, because he's like, look at how it worked out for Jesus, and then look how it's working out for me. And this is actually what it looks like to walk faithfully.
Sometimes it's really, really hard, but God is with you in the hard, and so don't be dismayed. Don't be turned away because things get hard. It's really just the following in the footsteps of Christ. But there is a hope, now, that He's with you, and a future hope where all of this eventually ends, and you're with Him forever. And so I just thought that that was a good message and a timely message that we always need to hear. But just, it seemed right for the time.
Yeah, so and then when you said, how about Joshua? I was like, oh my gosh, my heart just melted. Which is funny because that's a little phrase in the text, but I love Joshua, and a lot of people don't love Joshua, but I love the book of Joshua because I can get myself, and as a teacher, I can get other people to Jesus real quick through Joshua. And Joshua's not about Joshua, and Joshua's not about the Promised Land. It is, but it isn't, and so it's, I can, I love to read it and I love to teach it and just explain those things and watch people go, oh. Oh, that's why that's there. Because Joshua gets a bad rap and he shouldn't.
Alison Mezger:
Okay. We'll tease that out a little bit more at the end. But it's fun to hear just that books that we don't often think about. I think about this when we started studying Lamentations, that it's not the book that you go to when you want a message of hope, or to be reminded of something like that. And yet, that is so intrinsic to its message. And so it's so fun to have your perspective on a book that God has given us to have that perspective shifted.
Denise Stevens:
Yes.
Alison Mezger:
And it be like, no, you think it's about this, but actually, it's about this. It's so much richer or deeper or different.
Denise Stevens:
There's that one excitement of, and the primary excitement, which it always should be, is we get to give glory the Lord, and I can't wait to watch these ladies light up with, I had no idea. My mind is blown.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's so fun. Okay, Jenna, what was that like for you? You get an email in the fall about 2nd Corinthians, you've already said you're signing up.
Jenna Homan:
[inaudible 00:10:59] I'm in.
Alison Mezger:
No matter what I tell, [inaudible 00:11:00] you were doing.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
Right. You're in. But what were the initial thoughts? What was your frame of reference for either one of those books?
Jenna Homan:
So I did an in-depth study of 1st Corinthians in college.
Alison Mezger:
Okay.
Jenna Homan:
And so I was like, oh, it's just round two.
Alison Mezger:
It's part two.
Jenna Homan:
Yeah, part two.
Alison Mezger:
Okay, cool.
Jenna Homan:
So I love the first one, probably will love the second.
Alison Mezger:
Okay.
Jenna Homan:
And so I was excited. There are a few pieces of 2nd Corinthians that I know like treasures in jars of clay. But as a whole, I just wanted to know what are the themes? What are we walking through? What is Paul walking through as he's writing this? Where is this in his journey of faith? And so it was coloring in a lot of the outline that I had, but I was excited. We love the New Testament, we love the Old Testament, but the New Testament.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. So 2nd Corinthians was an easy sell for you?
Jenna Homan:
It was an easy sell, yes.
Alison Mezger:
Okay. What about Joshua?
Jenna Homan:
Joshua, not as much of an easy sale.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Jenna Homan:
I'm just going to be honest with you. I think even as I studied it, just I've tried to read it before and then you get to the part where they're taking over lands, and then all of a sudden they're allotting the lands and you're like, what am I even reading? What am I doing? And so, it was I was excited because it was a new opportunity for me to see Joshua in a new light. And I'm grateful that I did the study because I see Joshua in what and how it should be seen. It's such an incredible book and there's so much about the Lord's faithfulness, and the Lord keeps all of His promises and I would've never known that, if I'm being honest. I would've never gotten that from a personal study. So was I looking forward to it? Yes. Because I look forward to all of them. But was I a little bit nervous? Yes.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. So let's dig in a little bit about just the wrestling that you have to do, I think in particular with a book like Joshua. But there are aspects of both. Even just the idea that suffering isn't something that we're not guaranteed. In fact, it's probably more accurate to say that suffering is something that we are guaranteed if we're going to walk faithfully. And so what did some of that wrestling look like for either one of you, just in your own personal study, Denise, for you, while you're teaching, you're not just getting up there and saying a script of things, it's coming from personal wrestling, you have to do with the text, as well. So walk us through what that has felt like for either one of those books.
Denise Stevens:
I'm going to start with Joshua first. I, in some ways, can be a rebel, and in some ways I can be a rule follower. So it depends on if the rules make sense, if I follow the rules. So as a youngster reading the book of Joshua, it was, I'm confused why this is in the Bible. I get it, we're going to this land, but this seems like a crazy book. And then somebody just explained to me that the Lord protects His people, and you're His people, and so isn't that good? And I was just, oh my gosh, that's the best news ever. The Lord protects His people. And so even though there's a lot in Joshua where people aren't protected, it's like, well, they didn't care. They didn't want to know God. They weren't His people because they also didn't want to be His people. But the Lord protects His people, and I'm his people. And I just was, that's the best news ever.
And so for me, personally, I've never wrestled through Joshua in the way that some of my friends have. And so getting to teach and think through the lens of where somebody else might be like, but I'm struggling with this thing, and appreciating that struggle, seeing and hearing that struggle, but also sharing, but He protects His people and He loves you so much. And His desire would be for everybody to know Him, for everybody to be protected by Him, and that He's such a good God and good Father. And there are people today that I know that still go, "I don't want any part of that," and that's sad. And I don't go, "Gosh, God, what are you doing not protecting them?" I go, "Come on friend, let me tell you about my Jesus. Let me tell you about my God." And yeah, and it's heartbreaking when they're like, "No, thank you."
And so I just think about with Joshua, I'm like, there was just a lot of no thank yous, or just no, without the thank you, happening in Joshua. And it's, to me, soul crushing in a different way. Not that God was not a good God, but why weren't you hearing? Why wouldn't you? He parted the Jordan River after parting the Red Sea, people, come on. And so soul crushing that there were people and our people who don't see it, don't care. And so just had to wrestle through how to deliver that well to people who are really just still wrestling with how can that be a really good God?
And I think for 2nd Corinthians, yeah, it just speaks to me because there's just a lot that's gone on in my 53 years of living that have been less than smooth or less than easy, and so to me, that book is very comforting, as well. It's people talk about, oh, I don't want to talk about how we're suffering and that, that's most likely what's going to happen, but it's, I don't know about your life, but my life gets filled with it whether I want it to or not. And so it's actually very comforting to know that this is the norm. there's not something that you're doing it wrong. It's, this is just how it goes and God's with you. And so to me, that's very comforting.
And to be able to, then, teach that message through a lens where there's also been personal suffering is a sweet thing to do. It's like, okay, you gave me these things, Lord, and now I get to use them for your glory and to help other people along their walk.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. You know what I love? Because I think I heard you say, was in one context there's the wrestling with the text, what for you, but then, also, as you're thinking through what other people, how they're reading it, you really are wrestling with what does this say and mean, and what does that mean about God? And that's probably a more common experience with Joshua.
And with 2nd Corinthians, the wrestling is maybe less about what does the text really mean and say, and more, how do I reconcile that with my personal experience? My life looks different than that, and so how do I reconcile that, which is, I think, for all of us, no matter what book of the Bible we're talking about, those are the two aspects of wrestling for us. In some cases, it's, why does your word say this? And in other places, it's, okay, your word says this, why does that feel off from what I experience and us having to be faithful to do both of those things.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
Jenna, what about from you?
Jenna Homan:
I think in Joshua, the biggest thing was going through all the destruction. I think I have a tendency, and maybe I'm alone in this, maybe I'm not, to fictionalize the Old Testament. Because maybe it's because I grew up as a kid in church and was told these stories, and for some reason, it's separated in my brain. So one, that God is the same God today.
And at the beginning of one of the classes, one of the discussion questions was, for the people that you love, what would you be willing to do? And for me, I was, oh, I immediately thought of my family. I would move mountains if they needed me to, and my tiny human emotions and my tiny human brain compared to God's, He would do the exact same thing, and that's what He's doing. And wrestling with that of, okay, that God is, God is still good in that. And that was hard for me, and I wrestled with that, and I had a lot of conversations with God of, okay, this is what you were calling your people to, but then also, you were faithful to them. It's not like you just threw them into battle and said, "Let's see what happens," but He just remained so faithful and he called them to do something, and He was there the entire way.
But it was hard to just sit in that and to wrestle with that of, okay, you're a good God, but this is a hard thing, and it's not really something that we see in 2023 a lot, and so it's not really a part of our culture, but trusting that the Lord is so good in that was hard for me to wrestle with.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, there's an uncomfortable relationship for us between wrath and love.
Jenna Homan:
Yes.
Alison Mezger:
Right? Or justice and love, however you want to frame it. That, that's God's Love requires that he be angry.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
And act out on the things that threaten His holiness and threatened what He loves.
Jenna Homan:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
And so they're intertwined in a way that makes us really squirmy, I think.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
I think it makes sense. Yeah.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah, and the weeks where we covered verses, or chapter 7 through 12, this is going to be the power and justice of the Lord alongside the power and love of the Lord, and we're going to see them both present and both are true, and that can be hard. And yet, at the same time, I feel like when we think about the end, heaven, we're like, oh my gosh, no more tears. It's just going to be shalom. It's going to be full reconciliation of things that didn't get reconciled. I cannot wait for that day in the presence of my Lord.
And so just watching those themes going through Joshua, we were like, that's what I want in the end, but I don't want that right now because these poor people got killed. And it's, yeah, but there was also a lot of evil and wickedness, and it's just showing that there is this promised hope where that goes away and it's going to be really hard and sad for those who didn't put their trust in the Lord. And so, yeah, wrestling through that, that there are sad things that happen now where friends or family members who didn't have faith and then have died. It's wrestling with that same, oh, the power and justice of God has been met here, and it's really, really sad, but the power and love of the Lord is also so amazing that I get to share that with other people so that they don't, hopefully, miss out on His goodness.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's good.
Jenna Homan:
That's good.
Alison Mezger:
Jenna, any wrestlings in the 2nd Corinthians? Maybe a little bit easier on some of that deep theological fronts.
Jenna Homan:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
But what about just personally for you, especially having the 1st Corinthians context that you already had coming into it?
Jenna Homan:
I think 2nd Corinthians was more of a personal struggle with God, so it wasn't really a text struggle. I feel like Joshua is very text heavy and text struggle. But I think for me, I was walking at out of a season of suffering, which is hard. And we kept on talking about the comforts of God and how, when we are in our suffering, that God comforts us, and then out of the comfort that we receive from God, we can comfort others. And I think in that moment, I was just sitting there and I was like, okay, but this is still hard and this is tough, and I feel like sometimes hope turns into sour disappointment the second you take your eyes off Jesus sometimes.
And so it was just where I was at in life where I was wrestling with, okay, God is a comforter and I've received comfort, and now I get to have a ministry of the things that I just walked through, which is hard sometimes, but because of the comfort I have from Christ, I can now comfort others and what they're walking through in a similar way. And so it was more of an emotional struggle for me of God, why does this have to be a part of my story? But then watching the Lord take that and use that, and the hope that has that one day, I will be able to, hopefully, comfort others with the comfort that I received from Christ.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's awesome. Even if it's not, maybe, super tangibly felt in that moment.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
You're counting on it being there. I loved what you said, Jenna, about how significantly hope changes when you take your eyes off of Jesus. Let's talk about, and Denise, you alluded to this at the very beginning of, let's talk about these two books and how they uniquely point to Jesus. Obviously, 2nd Corinthians may be a little more easy for us to wrap our minds around, just because it's New Testament and it's Paul, and that feels familiar. We've got something different going on in Joshua, but I'd love to hear those takeaways from how are these two different types of books both pointing you to knowing Christ better and seeing Him more clearly and loving Him and really, to your point, receiving comfort from Him? Because God gave us these two very different books, ultimately, to shed light on who His son is. It's just happening in different ways.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
So initial thoughts just on studying Christ through these two different books.
Jenna Homan:
I think for Joshua, we talk about this a lot, that Joshua sets the stage for Jesus, and that Jesus is the better Joshua. And so Joshua is leading these people to the Promised Land, and he is conquering things to get them there. And that's what Jesus has done, and Jesus is currently doing for us, and so it just sets the stage. And so that points to Jesus, Joshua points to Jesus because he's just a human example, and I think that, that's so cool.
Denise Stevens:
And what I love, too, is that last Sunday, two weeks ago, Sunday, at West, we had Jimmy McNeil preaching, and preaching in Hebrews, and talking about how Jesus is our rest. He is the land. And so loving that through Joshua, it's, He's the better Joshua, Jesus is. He's the better Moses, He's the better rest, He's the better all of these things that all these Old Testament things we're always pointing to. And so singing that song that we sing in worship about opened my eyes to see things like you do, it's that's my prayer when I read the Old Testament because it's, you're pointing me constantly to who you are in Christ through all these things in the Old Testament, it's what it was always building to.
And so yeah, just seeing Jesus being the better everything in that book, the better rest, right? We're not worried about a land, so much anymore, as we are, we have rest in Him, now, and He's our conqueror. He's all those things. So love that.
Alison Mezger:
Jenna, I'm curious if that was new for you, as far as a way to see a story like that in the Old Testament. You've talked about the Old Testament's fictionalized in your mind.
Jenna Homan:
Yes.
Alison Mezger:
Were you operating from the beginning with an understanding that Joshua was pointing to Jesus, or was it just, this is part of the story about Israel long, long time ago, and it's a cartoon?
Jenna Homan:
Veggie Tales did prepare me for this.
Alison Mezger:
There you go.
Jenna Homan:
But I think I knew, basically, its placement in the Old Testament, and so the purpose of it. But I remember when Denise was up there teaching and she said that, my mind was kind of blown and I was like, holy cow. Holy cow. This is crazy. I would have, one, never gotten there, once again, by myself, but my brain had never gone there because we always think about the prophetic books.
Alison Mezger:
Right.
Jenna Homan:
And Joshua was never one of those, in my brain, that Jesus would be mentioned, that would allude to Jesus. And so it did blow my mind the first time I was like, man, oh man, this is good stuff. See me, again, next week, same time.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Well, and I would imagine, not to get too prophetic, but I'd imagine that it's the kind of thing that it changes the way you actually will read a lot of things in the Old Testament because you're more likely to look for that. You're more likely to look for where are the things pointing to that Jesus is the better fill in the blank.
Jenna Homan:
Yes.
Alison Mezger:
Because this has given you a good framework for that, which is so fun. And it just means that you're going to see that in a lot of other places.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
So we'll have to do some more Old Testament.
Jenna Homan:
Sign me up. I'm there.
Alison Mezger:
Which Denise is not sad about.
Denise Stevens:
Not sad at all. And I love Joshua, too, because I consider it a hinge book. It just so much takes us back to the Old Testament, and remember when, and the Passover, and remember these things, and then it pushes us forward to this Promised Land that is still was not, they could not take hold of, but that we will get to take hold of. And so I just love that it is, functions as this hinge for us to look back and look forward.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, this isn't in our notes, but we got to talk about the ending just really briefly, because I think like so many other stories, you think it's going to resolve in a way where it's, the Lord has so clearly been faithful, we're finally here, we are going to, Israel's going to promise to be faithful in return. Turn the page to the beginning of Judges, which is the next book, and you're like, oh, JK. Israel did exactly what we do, which is think we're going to be faithful, and that not actually play out. I don't think there's a question at the end of that. I just wanted to reflect a little bit.
Jenna Homan:
It's so relatable.
Alison Mezger:
On just the... it is so relatable.
Denise Stevens:
It is relatable, but it also, even in the Book of Joshua, it's, okay, they march around Jericho and they're doing all the crazy things that they're supposed to be doing, and then they don't do what they're supposed to be doing. And we're like, what is wrong with them? It's like, well, what is wrong with me? I'm doing the things I'm supposed to be doing and then I'm not. And so, that's just the whole pattern through Joshua and the entire Old Testament and the entire New Testament and my life.
Alison Mezger:
That's right. [inaudible 00:28:44].
Denise Stevens:
And so it's like, oh, I need a better Joshua.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. That's right.
Jenna Homan:
It's so relatable because we were talking about this, Israel, they're about to wild out again, but they are sitting there as if God hasn't provided for them, as if they didn't just win almost every single battle in the book, as if they didn't just get the Promised Land and split it up between them. But God still didn't provide enough. And I was like, oh, they're lame for that. And then I look at myself and I'm like, I'm lame for that. I do the exact same thing. God gives me a good gift, or God teaches me something, and I'm like, yeah, but did you provide enough?
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, but did you really do it?
Jenna Homan:
Yeah. And it's way too relatable.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Well, you've heard it here, ladies, that the Book of Joshua is actually very applicable and relatable. And to be honest, that's a shock, I think.
Denise Stevens:
Who would've thought?
Alison Mezger:
Who would've thought, right? That's not where you go to.
Denise Stevens:
God.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, that's right. Denise just said, "God." That's right. Okay. Let's turn our attention a little bit onto 2nd Corinthians. Some of the connections are obviously a little bit more straightforward, but you felt a lot of tension, Jenna, in reading that. So what did it look like to end the context of that letter? Have it point your focus back to Jesus?
Jenna Homan:
So we talk a lot about strength and weakness, and how God is our strength and our weakness. And I don't like having weaknesses. I'm an Enneagram two and three, and I don't like to have weaknesses, I don't like to show them, and so I do everything that I possibly can to minimalize my weakness. And so to have Paul be in conflict with the Corinthians and just have that conflict there, but then also, Paul was in jail, and all of these things, but the Lord still used Him in his weakness and worked through that conflict with them. But ultimately, Jesus works through our weakness and becomes our strength in that. And what a beautiful thing.
That was something that I also wrestled with was, okay, my weakness is okay, the Lord has given me strengths, the Lord has given me weaknesses, and this is okay. And Jesus shines through those weaknesses because, ultimately, He's better than anything I could do. And what a blessing it is that He uses me still, even though I have weaknesses.
Alison Mezger:
And I think one of the other themes in the book was how all of that's woven together to highlight God's power.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
And point to his glory, right? And so it feels like we often, at least I often operate as though it'll be through my strengths that I'll have access to His power and He will get glory, but it's actually the opposite of that, which is just, that's not what we would prefer because it doesn't glorify me in the process.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
But it's actually what's best and how we're designed and how He's designed it all to be, so.
Jenna Homan:
It's so beautiful that the Lord uses His extraordinary power in such ordinary beings.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah.
Jenna Homan:
Got to love it.
Alison Mezger:
Denise, what about for you teaching that? What were the fun moments of getting to really highlight how it, the picture it paints of Christ?
Denise Stevens:
Yeah. I just think it just kept throwing me back to the Sermon on the Mount where it was just, okay, blessed are the meek, blessed are those who are feeling very lowly. And it's the people in Corinth were like, well, hey Paul, we wish you were flashy and awesome. And he's like, "Okay, I'm going to give you, now, my credentials." Like shipwrecked. Beaten. And it's, oh, yeah, blessed are those who aren't going to put themselves on a pedestal, because Paul could have done that, too, with his, who's a Jew? I'm a Jew. Who's done all these great things? I have. But here's, actually, these other things that have happened, and they don't discredit me. They actually give me credibility for having to lean on Jesus and this thorn in my side, and you're not going to take it from me because my grace, Jesus's grave is sufficient.
And so just remembering that, okay, His grace is sufficient. His grace is sufficient for this incredible God to be working through this incredibly weak vessel. And it was just such a much more straightforward seeing of Jesus working in 2nd Corinthians through Joshua, in terms of my own processing. I doesn't take as long or as hard to get there through 2nd Corinthians. It's more of that direct line, and yet, still difficult because it's, oh yeah, I can be strong when I am weak because I want to depend on me, because the Lord has gifting me with a lot of incredible abilities to do things. I can get a lot done in a day, and those things are true, and I need to depend on the Lord because I will wear myself out.
And so 2nd Corinthians is just a good reminder of, it's okay to be weak. Like you were saying, Jenna, it's actually preferable than tying it to Joshua. Because what will happen is I will get ahead of myself and I will forget to ask, Hey, Lord, even though this seems like a slam dunk, I probably ought to talk to you about this first because I will get ahead of myself. And so yeah, those were great things to remind me of in reading second Corinthians that yeah, He's my strength, not me.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, okay. So lots of lots and lots and lots. We could keep going on. We could just reflect on every chapter of the-
Jenna Homan:
Every single thing that we've learned.
Alison Mezger:
Every single, yeah, all of the big takeaways and personal applications. I want to also talk about just the experience of doing this with other women, right? Because Jenna, like you said, you weren't just, we could have just shipped everything to your house and you could have done the Bible study even with the aids, but there's something about getting together and doing that in community. As someone who has jumped into a lot of previous studies, what's that been like for you, and just reflect on that space to do that with other people.
Jenna Homan:
I think it's a really cool opportunity, one, to make our church feel smaller. And a majority of the time, I'm at a table of women that I've never met before. And for some people, that's probably really scary. Honestly, it's scary for me. But getting to meet these women, and you're all there for the same reason. You all want to study this book of the Bible, you want to gain knowledge of the Bible, you want to gain skills to study the Bible, and you're all just there. You get to make friends. But never once at any table that I've ever sat at, has that ever been surface level. We dive in deep, very deep. It is not in any way, shape or form. How's your day? It's, how would you protect your family?
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Jenna Homan:
Or what's something you wrestled with this week in the allotment of lands during Joshua or whatever it is. And it's such a cool way to meet women at my church, and I love it. And it's provided community. The amount of times I remain friends with the people at my table, we go grab coffee or whatever it is. It's a lot of fun and it makes our church feel a little bit smaller, getting to meet women that aren't in my MC.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, aren't in your day-to-day life.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. There's such attention that I think we find, because we're all trying to make our worlds feel smaller, we're all trying to invest in the relationships that seems like there's going to be the most fruitfulness on both sides where you can serve and bless, but also receive all the blessings and benefits of being in community with people. And so it's hard to know where to spend that time, and it's, I think, encouraging to me to hear that there can be, and I think it makes sense to us that you gather people around the Word, in particular, but that's different than just being seated at a dinner table for six or seven weeks.
There is some immediate going deep even with people that you started out not knowing. That's a really sweet supplement to your ongoing community, which you have. And it doesn't necessarily replace that, but it's not shallow just because it's not that, as well.
Jenna Homan:
Yes.
Alison Mezger:
Which is really cool. Denise, any thoughts from you from that? You have a different vantage point in the room.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah, I have a different vantage point because we had 60-ish, 50, high fifties, 60-ish in the room, and I'm wired where I want to know everybody and you can't know everybody. And so it's, okay, make sure I know the table leaders, and then make sure that the questions are written in such a way that I get to see them having good community.
And I read this book called The Other Half of Church, which just talks about engaging both parts of our brain, in terms of the facts, the data, but then also the emotion and the imagery of what's going on. And so those questions for discussion are really intended to engage the other half of our brain where they're homework engaged, more of the left side. And so watching the discussions, especially in Joshua, has been really incredible. It's always really good, but I feel like it's been really incredible.
And to watch those things that Jenna was saying is happening happen. So I get to see that happening. People talking, people talking about things that are much deeper than how was your day. And investing in one another, even if it's only for six, seven weeks, it's still better than no investment at all. And it just feels incredible to watch a whole group of women talk about the Lord and what He's doing in their lives and what He is doing overall. And that is just, I don't know. That's a pretty cool seat to get to watch that happening.
And one thing we've done differently this semester is we've, at our class, we've ended it with a question and answer. And so I think we should add that for every class, but we felt like it was really a good thing to do for Joshua because there are so many things going on that people may, at the end, go, wait, I still don't understand, or we didn't really get to cover this. And so it feels like in their small groups at their tables, they are getting to have questions with one another, but the Q&A then broadens up to the whole room where it feels a little bit like the whole class were one, and I really like that, is standing at the front of the room getting to talk to everybody and feel like they're getting to talk back, too.
What did you think about that? Do you love that?
Jenna Homan:
I loved it.
Denise Stevens:
Yeah?
Jenna Homan:
It is so fun. And it is so helpful. I'm not very good at coming up with questions, and so I may have a question in my head and I'm like, well, whatever.
Alison Mezger:
But when you hear someone else ask it.
Jenna Homan:
Exactly.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah.
Jenna Homan:
And there was one week where we were getting down to, yeah, but what's the size of the holy land compared to Texas? And so it's really deep like, okay, I don't understand this theology, but then it's stuff like that, and so it's such a great addition. I love it and I think we should, also.
Alison Mezger:
All right.
Jenna Homan:
Continue to do it.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah. Duly noted.
Okay. I know there are women listening who, hopefully a lot, who participated in one of the Bible studies this year at their congregation, but I also imagine that there are some listening that haven't ever joined us. And so real quickly, what would be your charge? What would be your invitation to them why they should come?
Denise Stevens:
My charge would be, it's fun. There's nothing I would rather do on a Tuesday night than to talk about the Lord and what He is doing living and active, even though we're reading very old texts, what He's doing right now in all of us, and seeing everybody just engage in that. And I think that, that's way better than watching Ted Lasso, I think that it's better than a happy hour, although I like those things, too. There's just something so, I don't know, rich and meaningful and weighty, in a good way, about doing that, that I would love for other women to come join and go, "That was a, that's really good." There's work to do, but it's good work.
Alison Mezger:
That's awesome. Jenna, what about you? You gave us your thoughts at the beginning, but I'm going to give you another chance to invite.
Jenna Homan:
I think it's really cool. If you've never done one of these studies, you have personalized quiet times, which is very convenient, I'm not going to lie. And so you get it laid out for you and so there's intentional time with the Lord. And if you're struggling with it, maybe spending time with the Lord, I think it's a great way for it to be pushed on to you. You have homework every week and you get the opportunity to study the Bible every single week. And so there's that portion of it, but also the relationships that you form. If you don't know someone, put my name down on your friend request. I'll be your friend. I can, I want to be everyone's friend. And so put Jenna Homan down.
Alison Mezger:
There we go, guys.
Jenna Homan:
And meet the woman at your church. The ones... Bring a friend. It's so cool. I once forced my entire MC to do, it was actually 2nd Corinthians, so we sat there as an MC, the women, and we had a few extra people at our table that weren't there, and so watching them get out of their comfort zone and make friends. But it's also, it just, like I said earlier, it makes your church feel like home, and it makes it feel smaller, and it makes it feel more personal, and it's more people to see on a Sunday morning and more people to have community with. And so if you're struggling with either one of those things, I've got the solution for you.
Alison Mezger:
Jenna's got a plan for your life, guys.
Jenna Homan:
That's right.
Alison Mezger:
Well, one of the ways that, Denise, as long as I've known you, as a teacher, you have ended classes, and this is now been incorporated into most of our Bible study environments, is the idea of a say so comes from Psalm 107:2 that says, "Let the redeemed of the Lord say so or proclaim," and just give glory to what He has been doing. And so there's a chance at the end of the study for people to just share what has the Lord taught them, what have they experienced? As you reflect back, each of you, on the past two studies, what's your say so?
Jenna Homan:
I think for 2nd Corinthians, I think about two things. But like we talked about earlier, the comfort in Christ and then being able to comfort others, but then also, the Lord gives us freedom and He uses us. He uses His gospel through us so that we can help others walk through freedom. And I tangibly saw that at our table, just watching everyone processing it. And I was also walking through things that I needed freedom from and received freedom from, so that was so great and to watch that happen at our table was really cool.
And then for Joshua, sitting at the table and just hearing about these women's lives about how we need to trust because God is good and God keeps all of His promises and that He's the same God as Joshua, still to this day, even though in my head I may fictionalize it, He's very real. He's still living and active, and so that God is still keeping all of His promises to us, and so He's worthy of our trust.
And so thinking about things that I'm currently walking through in life where I'm like, Lord, you are good. I am nervous for what this is going to look like, but I trust you because you keep all of your promises. And watching all of us process that together has been really cool. And some of us are walking through really hard things, but seeing that the Lord is going to be faithful and the Lord just doesn't call us to do fun things, and then He abandons us. The Jordan River was still raging when they got there, but when they put their feet on it was when it separated. And so the obedience that, that took, the faith that, that took is amazing, and it applies to our lives, still.
Alison Mezger:
That's awesome. Thanks, Jenna.
Denise Stevens:
Thanks. For the 2nd Corinthians say so it would be just more as the teacher giving God the glory of just seeing this group of women grasp hold of, it's okay to have weaknesses, it's good to have weaknesses. And so definitely felt that for myself, but to just see the room embracing that, and the goodness of God, even in those weaknesses, and not just in spite of them, but those are the good things, too. That, that's when most growth takes place and for people to not just be resigned to it, but to be really good with that.
And then in Joshua, more personally, it's not a direct correlation, but I've been moving, literally, from one house to another. And at one point we did, we'd sold our house, but we did not know where we were going because we didn't have house picked out. And I was like, I'm going to a land that I do not know, and I just have to trust God, and I want all the details now, but I don't have the details now. And yeah, they had to just step into the raging river before it stopped, and there was no even, do you want to step into the river? It was, your house sold and you have to move out. So it's like I was just thrown into the river whether I wanted to go or not, and the Lord's still parted it, and it's been really, really stressful.
But at the same time, God has been so good. And then, yeah, just those reminders of every little detail, even if you think you've got it, things are really stressful right now with this move, and so you don't got it. Ask Him, talk to Him, pray about these things, and He's just, yeah, He's parted every river and He's provided in every way possible that things that we could never have expected. And so yeah, just all glory to God of, you've been amazing, and it's just funny how His Word is so living and active. And so it would've been living and active even if I hadn't been moving, but because I was moving, it was living and active in that way. And so it's, well, thanks God. You see me.
Alison Mezger:
Yeah, you're seen. Thank you guys so much. This is so fun. I didn't get to join you all in your exact class on Tuesday nights, and I know we had 6, 7, 8 other environments all around the city, but am so encouraged by what both of you shared, of just what you saw the Lord do through those texts He's given us, but also through the dedicated time to study with other women. And so I just, I'm thankful for you guys. I'm really encouraged, and I know that some of this will encourage some of the women that are listening. So thank you guys for joining us today.
Denise Stevens:
Good. Thank you for having me.
Jenna Homan:
Thank you.
Alison Mezger:
All right, friends, I hope you enjoyed getting to look back with us on all the things, really just some of the things that God did through our study of 2nd Corinthians and Joshua.
Want to let you know that we have more really fun and meaningful opportunities to connect, as Jenna said, to make our church feel smaller over the summer and into the fall.,We've got a couple of summer gatherings, church-wide summer gatherings for women that'll be happening in June and July. You will also be hearing about our theme for next year. We'll release some podcast episodes in July to kick that off. And I'm not even going to tease you with what it is, but I think you will be really happy about it. And then also, over the summer, we'll be opening up registration for our women's workshop in September. We are really excited to have Elizabeth Woodson come teach us about the overarching story of scripture and its implications on discipleship. So that's going to be a great day, September 16th.
And then also, if you're at all compelled, which I hope you are, to join us for a women's Bible study this fall, we will be spending seven weeks surveying the Psalms. And I know it's going to be a really, really sweet time. I will confess, and I think there are probably some more of you out there that are like me, that when you don't know where else to go, you flip to the middle and you read a Psalm. And that is a really sweet provision of the Lord's for us. And if I'm also honest, I don't know how to read poetry and I don't know what is happening here, and it's also in the Old Testament, and so I need help. So join us for seven weeks setting the Psalms this fall. I really, really don't think you'll regret it.
We hope to see you at some of these upcoming opportunities. Our church really is smaller than we think it is most of the time. We love you guys.