In this episode, our entire Women's Team sits down for a conversation on God's presence and our joy through the lens of loneliness.
Welcome back to The Women's Cast. That's short for podcast, forecast, our cast of characters, and all the casts in between. This year, we're focusing on joy as a ministry, which has led us to our Women's Retreat theme: Presence of Joy.
In this episode, our entire Women's Team sits down for a conversation on God's presence and our joy through the lens of loneliness. What if our joylessness and loneliness have more in common than we realize? How does God's presence help us in both? We'll dive into these questions and more! We hope this honest conversation encourages you as much as it encourages us.
Speaker 1 (00:00:05):
Well, hi guys. Welcome back to the Women's Cast. I'm Alison Mezger. I serve as essential women's ministry director here at the Austin Stone. It feels like it's been a minute since our last podcast, so I'm extra excited for our conversation today. This year as a ministry. We're digging deep into the joy we have in Jesus, which inevitably has informed our women's retreat theme presence of joy. If that phrase stirs up some questions, you're right on track. Maybe you're wondering, whose presence are we talking about? What does joy have to do with presence? Where is lasting joy found anyways? And how does God fit into this? These are all great questions and ones we want to spend the majority of our retreat time in March trying to answer. But to sum up the heart of it, we are fighting to believe right alongside you that God's presence and our joy are inseparable.
(00:00:57):
And that's actually really good news for us. In Deuteronomy 31, 8, God promised Israel, the Lord is the one who will go before you. He will be with you. He will not leave you or abandon you. Do not be afraid or discouraged. And as Isaiah 12, six, God's people are encouraged to shout aloud and sing for joy, for great is the holy one in Israel among you. One Chronicles 1627 says, splendor and majesty are before him. Strength and joy are in his place. And our anchor verse for the retreat weekend, Psalm 1611 says, you reveal the path of life to me in your presence is abundant. Joy at your right hand are eternal pleasures. All across scripture we see that God himself is present to his people. We also see that his presence is linked to their experience of joy. God has promised and made a way to be with us, for us to be with him and where God is, joy seems to be also, but if we're honest, God's presence doesn't always feel as present with us as we would like.
(00:02:11):
And we're sometimes loved feeling really alone. Often this is compounded by the loneliness we feel as we long to know and be known by other people. And after all, we are each created to be in relationship with others. So this idea of presence is complicated and unfortunately, our experience of joy isn't any less problematic. We've likely all had seasons where it seems fleeting at best. So for today's conversation, we're going to talk about his presence and our joy, but we're going to do so by peeking through the window of our loneliness. That's right. It's not just you. While it might sound kind of crazy to say that you're not alone heading into a conversation about feeling alone, I promise you it's true. Loneliness has been common to the human experience since when perfect intimacy between God and others was severed by sin and shame. So here's what we're asking ourselves and you to consider.
(00:03:09):
Could it be that this loneliness is the outcry of our souls longing to rest in God's presence? Once again, is our loneliness a barometer that should tell us how we're doing in relationship with others or to God or both? And could it be that it's exactly in his presence and healthy community, that our loneliness is not only met but we're placed with abundant joy? And finally, what if joylessness and loneliness are actually the same thing at their root? I know know we've got a lot of questions, which is why we decided to invite a lot of voices into this conversation. It's another reason I'm so excited for our chat. This is the first time that our entire team will be on one episode. That's right. You're getting all six of us today. So without further ado, today I'm joined by Persia, Kate, Christine, Annette, and Julie. Consider this an invitation into a chat with us over a long lunch or happy hour. We apologize in advance if things get a little rowdy at some point. Okay, well welcome guys. I have to say, we've all commented, we're in a much bigger and brighter space than we have been before. This is not, it felt when we all crammed into my closet.
Speaker 2 (00:04:22):
Far less fashionable though, I will say.
Speaker 1 (00:04:26):
Alright, well y'all ready to dive in? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to start with this question. We'll ease in. What is something that you hate to do alone?
Speaker 3 (00:04:34):
Hey Julie, here. I hate doing anything with my car alone. Going to get an oil change, new tires, buying a new car, all things
Speaker 2 (00:04:44):
Persia here. Hello. I do not running those simple errands. I think it illustrates a level of friendship. If I text you and I'm like, I'm going to Kyle to get a special pair of socks, which I don't know why I would, but I dunno what sounds like you version. Yeah, I need these socks, but just like the mindless errands, I prefer to do that with a trusted friend. That's good.
Speaker 4 (00:05:13):
Well, I'm a mom of three boys, so I like to do a lot of things alone.
(00:05:19):
A lot of things. And I'm an introvert, so I like to do most things alone. But there are a few things. One is, this is going to sound weird, but I do not like to watch documentaries. I love watching documentaries and I do not like to watch it alone because I have to talk about it afterward with the person or reading books or podcasts. I like when I am doing that with other people, maybe not in the same room necessarily, but doing it in community. I'm like, let's talk about that. I love talking about books or documentaries or podcasts, things that I'm learning.
Speaker 5 (00:05:53):
I feel that way about movies this. A couple days ago, 10 of us went to a movie and we all decided to go to dinner afterwards to digest it. Both the wonderful food and the content that we just watched. And that's the biggest fill for me. So I think similar, Christine thinking about learning something new, watching something and then not having an outlet to process it. Doing that by myself is not something I prefer.
Speaker 6 (00:06:22):
I'm like Christine, that I homeschooled my kids for so many years as an introvert. And so there are now a lot of things that I really do like to do a alone, but one thing that I don't is when I have to buy a gift for that really difficult person to buy for. I'm an external processor and so I really want to have somebody with me as I'm seeing something and talking about it. Do you think that they would like this? Would they use this? Or whatever? And because I just can't do that on my own, I want to have somebody there with me to banter with and bounce things off of as I'm trying to find that perfect gift. I like to find the perfect gift. That's good.
Speaker 7 (00:07:05):
I think mine is similar to you, Annette. This is Allison guys. I do not finding a place to stay for a trip on my own. And I actually love being a part of trip planning, whether it's for my family or with friends. I'm in the middle of some big trip planning things right now and number one, I'm really bad at maps. I'll be like, oh, this is close to the thing. And then you're like, this is not close to the thing. And there's so many different values that go into whether or not people are going to enjoy staying in a certain living situation and I need to be able to process that out mutually exclusive and you kind of have to decide are we going for this or this? And I just, it's up to me to pick the thing on behalf of everyone of where we stay on this trip. I do not want to do that by myself. I love that you said you're bad at maps. Oh, I'm so, so bad at the maps. That's
Speaker 5 (00:07:58):
Awesome. I'll throw these in just for the listener running and grocery store. Just two things I hate, period. Probably. So then it's kind of like if I can have a buddy, it's so much better. So much better.
Speaker 7 (00:08:14):
Do you like to talk while you run?
Speaker 5 (00:08:17):
No, I don't need that. I don't need that because of that is just over the top besides, but it's just, I think it's really is the, it's something that is so boring by myself and hard and so just being like, well, someone else is here. We are doing this hard thing together.
Speaker 7 (00:08:33):
I prefer That's fair. Makes sense. Okay, so let's go back a little bit because we've touched on a few different kinds of things. Do you like being alone?
Speaker 6 (00:08:41):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 7 (00:08:43):
Okay. We've got some yeses.
Speaker 2 (00:08:46):
I'm far more introverted than people think I am and I love time by myself. I go to restaurants, movies, things like that. I do that alone very often and it just feels good. Sorry, this is for free, but whenever I'm saying I'm going to do something and someone in my life that is an extrovert hears it and they're like, oh, I'm free that day, I can come. I really want to be like, it wasn't a
Speaker 6 (00:09:14):
Invitation. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (00:09:15):
I don't need you. I don't need it.
Speaker 7 (00:09:18):
You're inviting us to the boring stuff, like going to Kyle to get socks,
Speaker 2 (00:09:22):
Not the fun stuff,
Speaker 7 (00:09:24):
But we can't come to the movie or the dinner with you. Listen,
Speaker 2 (00:09:26):
I'm a complex individual. Yeah, you are.
Speaker 7 (00:09:29):
Okay. So some of this is falling down some personality lines of the degree. I would put myself firmly in the kind of maybe sort of category of enjoying loneliness as a, I know that I need it, but I don't necessarily always seek it out. My default is to include someone else in whatever the thing is. But then I know I need that time alone, but that's not probably my starting place of preference for
Speaker 4 (00:09:58):
Most. And I would clarify, I mean you probably said the wrong word there, but there's a difference between being alone and being lonely
Speaker 7 (00:10:03):
And we're going to get to that for sure. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Okay, so on the flip side of what we just talked about, and Christine, you already answered this a little bit, but what is something that you like to do alone?
Speaker 6 (00:10:15):
Well, I mean mine, it is very related to the thing that I don't like to do alone. I love to shop for myself alone. I tend to know exactly what I want for you and I'll go walk into a store and I could know within just a few minutes if they are not going to have what I want. And so why am I wasting my time here? I want to leave, but if I'm with somebody else, we have to linger and I'm like, I'm never going to find anything here. Why am I here? And then I just, it's all about the other person, which is great and that's wonderful, but if I really need something, my time is valuable and I want to get in, get out and have what I want on a mission. That sounds pretty selfish but no
Speaker 7 (00:10:59):
Human. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (00:11:01):
Well, I like to think alone because I'm an internal processor, so I need that space to kind of know what is the Lord speaking to me about? What do I need to do about this certain thing that I'm thinking about? I need that time to almost for my brain to settle and know how I want to proceed. So I need that time alone to think.
Speaker 7 (00:11:24):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3 (00:11:25):
Yeah, I'm very similar. I probably have a bandwidth for being alone more than the average person, and a lot of it is I just have to kind of chew on and gather and process life to get to a point where it's like, oh, I can move through this or talk about this or that kind of thing. That alone time is required. But a fun one is that I love to go to a movie on a Saturday morning. Morning time is crucial and get a cup of coffee by myself.
Speaker 5 (00:11:54):
You get a cup of coffee
Speaker 8 (00:11:55):
At the movie, coffee theater at all my sponsored best. Best is the best. That's
Speaker 7 (00:12:00):
Good. If you haven't tried it, I don't think
Speaker 4 (00:12:02):
I've ever been to a movie by myself, but I need to try that. It's
Speaker 7 (00:12:06):
Just very restful to me.
Speaker 2 (00:12:07):
It's a transcendent experience.
Speaker 5 (00:12:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (00:12:13):
That
Speaker 7 (00:12:13):
Feels like a little much. It's
Speaker 5 (00:12:15):
Ly people.
Speaker 2 (00:12:16):
You'll walk away different. Christine. Okay,
Speaker 7 (00:12:19):
Well for Kate, another extrovert, anything that you would like to do on your own?
Speaker 5 (00:12:23):
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm kind of quiet listening to Y Allall because my answer, this question has changed every year in the sense that I really have the last 10 years of my life feel like I've watched myself move on the scale of not even my skin growling, spending time alone to really needing it and loving it and seeking it out actually now. And so it's just even thinking about myself and why that is over time. And so yeah, I would definitely call myself an extrovert, but gosh, one of my favorite things Friday, Saturday is to put in my earbuds and tinker in our garage or go on a walk or space to think space to get my Bible and be alone. I get kind of anxious I think when someone else is in the room because then I want to talk to them then or I want to get a process.
(00:13:22):
So it helps me to have that time. I feel like I can rest in a different way when I'm in a space by myself, I guess in particular when I'm trying to connect with God. But I think my brain, especially when I'm taking on a new project or I'm trying to organize something, I really want to be able to wrap my head around it before I am needing to invite someone else into it or explain. I am thinking about putting something together, building something. Let's say I'm like, give me 15 minutes with it. It makes me anxious for five people in the meeting room trying to do something and I'm like, none of us know what we're doing. Oh my gosh. I'm like, I need that space for my brain to categorize it almost and then I can feel freed up to go. Maybe that's a little bit too much detail, but that's how
Speaker 7 (00:14:09):
My brain works. That makes sense. I've built IKEA furniture with you before.
(00:14:14):
Yeah, for me it is a little bit similar. It's doing anything. I have a little bit of a creative streak and I like to take on different little art projects, but I cannot do that honestly. If there's people in my house, I can't do it if there's going to be interruption or I need everyone to be gone and it to just take whatever pace it takes and that means being alone. So. Okay. Christine brought up a question that's really important for us to address before we go any further. What's the difference between being alone? Some of what we're talking about are kind of these practices of solitude. What's the difference between being alone and feeling lonely? Just in your own experience? We don't have to define define, but how do you understand, how do you experience those two things differently? I
Speaker 6 (00:14:59):
Think loneliness comes for me when there's some kind of internal discontent within myself that's bubbling up, and so I don't have to be alone to be lonely. I can be in a room full of people, but if there's something internally that's like I'm not content within myself right now, that tends to fuel loneliness for me.
Speaker 7 (00:15:27):
Discontent with yourself. That's good. What else guys?
Speaker 2 (00:15:32):
I think there's an undeniable shadow of sadness that comes with being lonely, and it feels right to say that it is possible to be lonely with people. Unfortunately, I think we all know some really lonely married people, and so being unmarried, I think loneliness looks like to me even a slight tinge of hopelessness in a way, relational, hopelessness because it just feels like, is this all it is? But that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm always alone when I experience that.
Speaker 5 (00:16:13):
Yeah, I think the sense of not feeling seen or known. So yeah, even as a single, you can be in a room full of people and be having a lot of conversations or connecting, but maybe it's some of that surface level, Hey, how you doing and exchanges or different things. And then internally you're like, man, I don't feel known. I don't feel seen in that sense of a hopelessness because of that lack of connection in a depth kind of way.
Speaker 4 (00:16:48):
I think loneliness involves longing. We're longing for something and that could be a little different for every person or even for the same person in different circumstances, but we're longing for something and unmet need maybe like Kate said, feeling unseen. But I think when I feel alone, I agree with Annette that there's a sense of settledness or peace that longing is not there as much. Gotcha. Yeah, that's how I would define it.
Speaker 3 (00:17:16):
I think behind, and Persia and Kate kind of talked about this in the being known language or you can be surrounded by a lot of people and still experience loneliness. There's a thread of belonging of do I have a place to belong or do I not? And so that's in a place that you belong, you're known, but there's also this thread of consistency. I think as a single, it's really easy to have multiple circles of people, but then when you look at your life across a month, you're like, I spent a lot of time with people, but I was cycling through all of these different groups, which means so much of all of these interactions stacked on each other was a surface level catch up. And so it's hard to ever get to a consistent, I have people at a certain depth with me pretty regularly because you're just cycling through that you're different circles that you swim in.
Speaker 5 (00:18:10):
Yeah. God, that's really good. Julie. I feel like a lot of the last, I mean it's been a long time since I graduated college, but most of my adult years post-College has been shifting in my understanding of cultivating friendships in the many to the few because of the very thing you're talking about, it can be energizing in this quick hit to have all the different kind of people you're connected with, but then it's crazy how you can live that life and go to sleep at night and be feel the pit of loneliness. So yeah, I think you're hitting on something even unique. Well, I don't want to actually be too quick to pair that singleness versus
Speaker 3 (00:18:57):
Marriage to my experience. It's connected to my singleness, but I think it can exist.
Speaker 5 (00:19:01):
Yeah, I think the same could be experienced for a married couple, but yeah, it's good.
Speaker 7 (00:19:06):
Okay, so that's good. We've got some discontent, an element of longing, kind of a deep sadness associated with being alone that feels hopeless in a different way than just being in some solitude. Julie talked about the lacking of some depth. Those are all things we associate with that feeling of loneliness that really is distinct from just being alone or spending time alone. So I mean if anybody's willing to share, I imagine in this group someone is counting on it. What has that experience been like when you've had a season like that? What has it been like to walk in a season of loneliness?
Speaker 2 (00:19:48):
I think a facet of loneliness for me is not hopefully not shocking to anyone listening to this or anyone in this room, but my ethnic experience can be really lonely because I love the people of our church, the people that I know in this city so deeply, but I've said it before, there's not a lot of chocolate chips in this cookie. And so the reality of that, even though there are so many people that love me even deeply meaningfully considerate of me being a black woman in a predominantly white community, there are certain parts of that that the Lord has just graced me to embrace and navigate without other people that experience the same thing. And I'm thankful for the men and women that are here that share my same experience that I can have empathy with, but it's not as many as I would like. And I think when I think of loneliness, that's probably what usually comes to my mind. Firstly. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:21:13):
Thanks for sharing that, Persia. Yeah, maybe just to say I think we all experience loneliness. I don't think you can navigate this life and figure out the puzzle pieces to avoid it. I think something that comes to mind for me, I kind of referenced it earlier as it relates to friendships, but I think back on myself mid to late twenties and think about a Kate that from external, I think people looking at my life would've been like she kind of has these things that we long for in life with community and friends and of course she's known and all those kind of statements. And man, I think that was a little bit in that transition point where I was figuring out that breadth versus depth kind of thing and friendships where, so it's just so interesting to me that from an outside perspective, I think just to say Kate in that season was very lonely, I think would've shocked some people, but man, the feeling of being known maybe in a broad kind of way, but feeling like you're kind of still missing the depth or the consistency like you were saying, Julie is a really hard place to be and thinking about why that happens, I think for me, I think everyone's experience is a little bit different, but it becomes a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy or I definitely when I can start to feel that lack of feeling known, then I have that tendency to want to withdraw because it's scary to, so it can start to snowball pretty fast.
(00:23:17):
I think I was just trying to figure that out mid to late twenties in a lot of ways. I think about that. I definitely went through a season of depression and it was a dark darker space in my life that felt really isolating and felt really like, God, where are you in this? And connecting with joy. I was like, I don't know what that means.
Speaker 6 (00:23:45):
I think there's also, from what I've experienced, there are times where there will be so much in my life that is going really well and I feel very involved and connected with other people, but I will be plunged into I really deep feeling of loneliness when I interact with a particular family member who I love dearly, love dearly and feel really tied to. But anytime I interact with this family member, it becomes very, very obvious that they have no interest in knowing me. Oh
Speaker 5 (00:24:24):
Yeah,
Speaker 6 (00:24:24):
Absolutely. And so I'll try to reveal myself to them to be vulnerable with them and it just met with a brick wall. And so I also think that there are seasons in our life where things would be going well and we are not an all the time experience loneliness, but then when it hits, it hits in such a profound way that it is really shaking to us, really jarring to us. And I just know anytime that I come away from an encounter with his family member, it takes me a little while to recover. It takes me a minute because it just hits something so deep in the well of loneliness.
Speaker 5 (00:25:11):
That's so interesting. The experience of being rejected in a way. I know that's some intense language, but you've put yourself out there to be known and then it's shut down how quickly that's a path to that sense of loneliness or
Speaker 4 (00:25:26):
That person will enter in with you. That's a sense of loneliness. I would say for me, I've had intense seasons of loneliness and they've been around transition, so transition to having children transition, moving transitions, but also position. So being a lead pastor's wife for 14 years and people not similar to what you're saying, I think of how do you even explain this to people unless you're in persia's shoes, how can you really know the nuances of it? And I experienced a lot of loneliness with that. But lately I would say in suffering, just suffering and I think we all have circumstances in life that we encounter or circumstances just of who we are the way our life is. God has designed it to where we are going to feel like people don't understand and they can't understand, and there's a sense of loneliness with that if we struggle to embrace that, that God knows and sees and he alone is going to know and see, but at times I've fought against that. I wish that people could understand fully what I'm feeling and experiencing, but they can't. And so there's this or gap where loneliness can creep into that
Speaker 7 (00:26:49):
You just articulated really well. I think I think back on main seasons where loneliness has been the most present. It's been in seasons of you said transition. I was just going to say when something big is changing. And I was like, well, I generally don't love change anyways. And so for some reason that makes especially relational change. Maybe it's because in my head, well, because I think it is true what you just said that everyone is experiencing that or not experiencing, it's so personal that it does feel then a barrier to connection or feeling known and seen because it can't be shared in a way that's sameness. And so sameness as a goal or in my head feels like the expectation or the hope and that's not going to be there. And so loneliness ends up being the result of that during seasons of change.
Speaker 3 (00:27:48):
I think for me, I was able to articulate everything earlier in this conversation because I think I'm to some extent in that season now and kind of have been for the past six months of just figuring out and just realizing, like we mentioned, this doesn't I think just apply to single people, but I think I've just been in a season of recognizing that I am single and I'm getting further and further. There's more and more distance created between me and my family of origin and just like what does it mean to be 31 and single and all of the things and have all of these incredible friend groups here in Austin that God has blessed me with. I feel bratty saying I have all of these friends. I know that there's people listening that's like, I would die for one friend, one social hang. So I want to be empathetic to that and know that it is such a gift that I have circles in Austin, but I'm just trying to navigate how do I have a consistent level of depth somewhere, a sense of family, a sense of belonging somewhere in Austin that is longer term and more sustaining and kind of these quicker hits of relationship.
(00:28:54):
So yeah,
Speaker 7 (00:28:55):
I think we've hit on this in some of our answers, but I think we can all recognize ways that whether it's through responses to things or some beliefs we didn't even know we were holding, that we can actually get in the way of fighting loneliness, get in the way of depth and knowing others and being known and doing some of the work to crawl out of a pit of loneliness. What comes to mind when you think about ways that you can even kind of self-sabotage the desire to not be lonely.
Speaker 4 (00:29:28):
I know exactly what I do and it is that I do not share. I will ask a million questions of other people and then I will withhold my own thoughts and feelings waiting for that person to ask me. And if they don't ask me, this is not, I'm not currently doing this just so you all know, I've had to learn over the years that I am doing that in hopes that that person will then see me and they will pursue and get to know me without me doing any of the risk, taking the risk of vulnerability with that person. And so it becomes this magic trick I can make you feel seen and known, but I'm hiding behind that skill and so I don't let people in. I make them have to work for it and then I get frustrated when they don't. Do you find
Speaker 7 (00:30:24):
Yourself doing that even more when you're in a space of loneliness at the beginning?
Speaker 4 (00:30:30):
I think I do it when I'm struggling,
Speaker 7 (00:30:34):
When I don't, and then it results
Speaker 4 (00:30:35):
In when I don't really want, I like to have everything figured out and then share it. And so Julie's laughing because we're very similar. I like to share it after I've figured out what it is the Lord's speaking to me about or what I kind of got through that. Let me wrap it in a bow. And I don't really like to share the messy middle with people. And so that's sabotage is relationships because relationships are built upon vulnerability. So I've had to learn that over the years of I just have to take that risk. It feels too risky to me sometimes to say I don't have it figured out.
Speaker 2 (00:31:06):
Yeah, that's good. Share the uncooked eggs, if you will. I think same. Keep it in because continuing to thread the needle of my experience as a black woman here, it upsets some of the current of relational vibes to just bring up, I'm the only black person in that's building right now or in any given setting. But to keep that in is so
Speaker 4 (00:31:42):
Heavy, I would imagine
Speaker 2 (00:31:44):
Heavy and just over time when that's not dealt with, that's the wrong phrasing, but when that's not processed or even discussed, it can calcify someone to this community, to the community that God's put them in sovereignly and graciously, and it can make me lose perspective of all the good that is here and not give someone the opportunity to be let in and to grow, to learn to understand me. But that truly, that just feels most inherent to do either to not upset the chemistry of the room or to feel like I'm just presenting a problem without a solution or yeah, just because it's
Speaker 7 (00:32:38):
Easiest.
Speaker 5 (00:32:40):
I think if we're not careful, loneliness can turn inward really fast in a sense that there's maybe one little detail or exchange or experience that pricked some loneliness. But then when I go away with my thoughts in that, it becomes a mountain, right? Real fast and it's me against the world and the narrative becomes really isolated into why I'm justified to feel what I feel and everyone else is wrong. So I think this is some of that for me to answer to how do I contribute to how does it kind of swell and become bigger than it even needs to be? Is that something that started that was really legitimate and sad or just a reality of our broken world that would cause me to maybe feel lonely? But then if I'm not processing that, if I'm not bringing into the light, if I'm not bringing it to God first and foremost, man, how quickly it can become Kate Terry's narrative and be inward and then become things that never was intended to be and become selfish and self-centered has amazed me, to be honest, how quickly that can happen when I really think back on some of the ways I've gotten stuck maybe in my narrative because I've withdrawn into myself and not taken those steps into vulnerability.
Speaker 7 (00:34:04):
A friend said actually in a meeting a week or two ago that we're all comparing our internal selves to everyone else's external self man that just gets really, you see how uneven that is at the outset, even in the best version of myself doing that is unfair to the other person and probably untrue to me and doesn't invite in that perspective of really checking what kind of story am I writing about myself, about the relationships that I'm thinking about when it's my internal world unfiltered and full of both spirit, but also flesh informing that and then judging that against just what I perceive is about the other person or the other people in that relationship. And it just gets off really fast.
Speaker 5 (00:34:56):
Well, I think we so easily fall into this trap of the only me language. That's
Speaker 7 (00:35:00):
What otherness that which makes sense because alone loneliness only me,
(00:35:09):
I think there is a really interesting, we don't want to create this false dichotomy where there's the reality that God has created each of us individually with a unique and truly unique one of a kind story and makeup, and that is true and beautiful and at the same time, there are far more commonalities in the human experience than things that are really truly other. Even though the of those things are different, the core, that's why there doesn't need to be different scriptures for every single person, different versions. We have one scripture that is sufficient for us because it addresses the fullness of who God is and the fullness of the human experience and gives us everything for life and godliness. And that couldn't be true if everyone needed truly a different thing. But I don't live like that. I'm like, speak to me. Tell me because my thing, uniqueness in my head becomes, becomes more significant than the commonality that we actually share. I
Speaker 4 (00:36:14):
Think that's one of the most common things that we do to hinder ourselves is we think we're the exception to the rule. And things changed for me when I started realizing after talking to so many women, I'm like, we really have very similar experiences and very similar desires. And if I assume that that other person doesn't have it all together and they want friendship and they have the same, it helps me to reach out to them versus, oh, I'm different. They're not
Speaker 7 (00:36:45):
Kind
Speaker 4 (00:36:45):
Of withdrawing from that.
Speaker 3 (00:36:47):
My mc actually just processed this last night out of Tyler's sermon on relationships this past Sunday on a specific line that he said, your desire for friendship is not out of dysfunction. And I think, Kate, you hit on that a little bit of the initial that's common to all of us, and it's like what we do with that when we feel it bubble up, like that desire, whether we hear a narrative of I'm just too needy and no one else is needy, and that kind of thing. What we do with that, whether we lean in or withdraw, I think is really crucial, but it's so helpful to acknowledge that you don't have that because something is wrong with you or something like that. That's right. That's right. It is a shared experience and that oddly, you're not alone in that.
Speaker 7 (00:37:36):
So how do we discern the difference between, and maybe that's even the wrong question because maybe these are not unrelated things, but Alaska anyways, how do we discern the difference between loneliness that we're feeling that can and should be met even to a degree by other people versus loneliness that can and should be met by God, right? We're created for connection to both of those. We're not denying the need for human connection, and also there's an ultimate nature to our relationship with God. So what does it look like to discern when those feelings of loneliness are there, what need that is actually pointing to?
Speaker 5 (00:38:18):
Yeah, it's funny. I read this question and I was like, I don't think I was, I think there's a say. I was like, I don't think it's one or the other, but also in examining my life, like I talked about in my mid to late twenties, I think some of what was going on was insecurity, that I was looking to be met by others because of my lack of security and who God said that I was. So the longing at its root has always got to be met by God, and the more that I'm secure in that I'm going to have the healthy response of is this a moment where I need to lean in? Is this a moment where I need to be vulnerable? Is this a moment where I need to retreat and have some science and solitude with God? I'm going to be able to better discern what it is that the spirit's steering in me and what needs to be met.
(00:39:10):
And more times than not, listen, and I think God's word testifies to this. It's the people of God that helped meet that need. So God's church is the embodiment of him to help meet some of those needs. So I think people are involved a lot of the time, but if I haven't first understood what's at the root of that longing and excavated that a little bit, peeled back the layers gotten down to that to where I'm rooted in some of that root idolatry or security and who he is, then I think I'm going to keep looking for it to be satisfied from people and that will leave me kind of back where I started and in this cycle, right? So
Speaker 7 (00:39:53):
That's so less two different options and more of an order of
Speaker 5 (00:39:56):
Pursuit. That's how I thought about it when I read that question. Yeah,
Speaker 4 (00:40:00):
That's how I think of it too. And I would say I think God sometimes authors seasons of loneliness in our lives to teach us that I had the same experience, same time of life where I'm just grasping for relationship and I think the Lord did that. He kept it from me for my good. It's good to teach me to come to him first. That's right. And then it is almost like I was looking for people to act as God acts and I didn't trust God to act like God acts. Does that make sense? So I'm looking for people to love me unconditionally, to know me fully and completely and all these things that they just cannot do, but he's right there with me saying, I can do that. I am doing that. And so find it in me first and then with these imperfect relationships, you're not going to be seeking it. You're not going to be looking for it to be perfect. True.
Speaker 5 (00:40:55):
Yeah. It can be messy and it'd be okay and there's still be growth and amen that
Speaker 2 (00:41:00):
There's a quote from Henry Nowan in his book called Discernment that said, Christian friendship is a lifetime of forgiving and being forgiven of just not being God.
Speaker 7 (00:41:15):
Dang, that's really challenging.
Speaker 2 (00:41:18):
Indeed. We can't be transcendent, we can't be omnipresent, we can't be all wise, all-knowing, perfectly gracious, unconditional in our love apart from what the spirit allows, but it's truly a lifetime of just being like I'm a sack flesh that God loves and Jesus
Speaker 4 (00:41:36):
Has everybody a flesh there,
Speaker 2 (00:41:39):
But that someone that God loves and that I love this other person, but I am imperfect.
Speaker 4 (00:41:44):
And then when you're settled in the Lord can do these, he is perfect in relationship. Then it changed my perspective on people in the sense of I could be grateful for what they brought to the table rather than, man, my expectation was this. They didn't meet that I don't know. And so I could be more gracious with them and also realize I don't bring perfection to this relationship. And so it just kind of released the pressure of relationships with people. I
Speaker 3 (00:42:17):
Think the whole thing is ultimately more loving when we're like, you're freed up to love people better and vice
Speaker 6 (00:42:24):
Versa. Yeah, because when I think about your original question, Allison, how do you discern between knowing if you have a real need versus something that can be met by others versus by God that it's when I am more concerned about what that other person is trying to give me or can give me rather than thinking about how can I actually serve this person, love this person, meet their needs? Because I mean, it goes back to the greatest commandments that we're to love God and we're to love other people as we love ourselves. And so if I'm not allowing God to be the one who's pouring in and is meeting my deepest needs, but I'm actually in every interaction trying to suck that from somebody else, it keeps me from being able to then pour out to them. And that is a really good indicator that I'm not finding my deep connectedness with my Lord, my deep value, my deep worth that will actually make me feel like I'm significant and I'm not alone.
Speaker 7 (00:43:28):
I couldn't agree with you more. And I think that is exactly where, I mean, we kind of come full circle because we are only going to be able to be others minded in a loving and Christ-like way when we have that kind of core relational need met with God first. And yet we started this conversation by saying one of the things we do to get in our way in actual relationships is not being honest or vulnerable about the relational needs that we might have. And so that's where I couldn't agree more with that order and that posture. And then it's like, can that be true? And then you still sit across the table from a friend and explain or invite them into your loneliness. And again, that's where it gets really, I think beautifully messy. Totally have to hold both of those things, be about them and also don't be afraid to, again, I think this is, it is without expectation that they can meet that perfectly, but it's still bringing the vulnerable truth of I'm really struggling right now with feeling alone and being able to say that and not be afraid to say just because you're trying to, in my head I'd be like, I'm trying to prove to myself that God is enough and I am not lonely and I'm going to be all about this other person.
(00:44:44):
And then I start doing what Christine says she does sometimes, which is asking them questions, asking 'em questions, and never bring that to the table. So it is like this cycle of just holding all of that
Speaker 4 (00:44:55):
Together. I was going to actually say the same thing because I think there's a flip side to this of that For some people, we need to challenge you to go to people because your tendency, you might hear this and go, well, I'm more spiritual. I'm just dependent on the Lord. But what really the Lord is leading you do is to share it with someone else you can enter in.
Speaker 6 (00:45:16):
Because a lot of times that's what the other person actually needs from you, and that's how you can actually serve them and love them well is to show that it's okay to be vulnerable. You don't have to put on a mask because when we are masking ourselves, it's a really good indication that we're trying to get something from the other person that should only be given to us.
Speaker 7 (00:45:38):
I keep thinking about one Corinthians one, four, just like the God of all comfort and we have been comforted so that we can give that to others. And that's not just comfort in pain or suffering. That's the relational comfort of being together and not being isolated because we've done some of these self sabotaging things,
Speaker 3 (00:45:55):
Just listening to y'all talk. It also just feels fitting to note that I think this is such a playground for the enemy, just the how you're, you think you're so different. You believe that the person sitting across from you couldn't resonate with get it, that kind of thing. I just like He loves to get us in isolation and keep us alone. And I think it's helpful to identify that even in this conversation. And I think that this is a place, a topic that the enemy loves because he easily wins. There
Speaker 5 (00:46:24):
Ly some of the sweetest times in my life have been moments where the spirit has empowered it for sure, but where I took the risk and took a step into ribbing off a bandaid of vulnerability that generally know how it'd be met on the other side and the like, oh my gosh, you too. The sense of there's actually more we have in common than not, and especially when you're in the healthy place of like, yeah, and I'm not saying that thing to then get something from you, but then we're both in that. Yeah, I struggle in that way too. Let's both help set our gaze from not being inward to now look upward to him, man, that is, we're made for that. That is the most beautiful part of this side of heaven I think, is walking in relationship with one another and helping each other persevere. And that moment doesn't happen without taking risk, without somebody starting and going first. But I'm so glad we've hit on this, making sure we're communicating. It's not linear in many ways. These are happening in tandem. You're both, and depending upon personality and bent, you're probably coming. You need to be challenged in the opposite way maybe of have you really sat with Jesus and taken this to him or are you just withholding all of this and not inviting in community?
(00:47:55):
God's designed us for both. Yeah,
Speaker 7 (00:47:57):
I like that language. These are two things in tandem. It's not something we're choosing between. Yeah, yeah, that's good. So what does it look like in the part of taking this to God? So that's something you just said, Kate, and something we've kind of been talking around, what does it mean to have that need to be known, the need to, what does it look like to actually take that to God and to let him be the foundational piece for us? What scriptures come to mind? What practices come to mind for you?
Speaker 2 (00:48:32):
Isaiah 30 comes to my mind the very start of the chapter when the prophet says, for God waits to be gracious to you at the sound of your cries. Although he may give you the bread of adversity and the water affliction, your eyes shall see your teacher and tell you, this is the way. Walking it paraphrase, that's not complete, but as close as it could, as close as I have phrased it truly, it feels like God is saying through the words of the prophet, I know this is hard. It can truly be relationally. It can be as hard as it actually feels. Sometimes it is it not as bad as you think, but sometimes it is. You can feel that isolated and that be the reality in a given season. But God knows, and just because he's silent in this matter or may feel like he's silent, it doesn't mean he's still, he's there catching every tear, every prayer, every honest broken up kind of jumble prayer of God, help me. He wass to be gracious to you at the sound of your cries.
Speaker 5 (00:49:44):
Yeah, that's good. I love what Christine said earlier about often we're not trusting God to be God. We're kind of like, are you really able to love me in the way? Are you really who say you are? And that's maybe keeping us from going to him. So I find for me the best thing to really practically is I need to be reminded of who he is. So whether that's making a list of scriptures that you're saying for sure, or just reminding me of the true things about his character, about what he promises about his presence with us, I need to go and read those. I need to go and meditate on those. And one for me in my own story, I've come back to time and time again and that is Psalm 34, 17 and 18 that right just cry out and the Lord hears and rescues them from their troubles.
(00:50:27):
The Lord is near the broken hearted. He saves those Christian spirit. I had a season in my life of that sense of incredible loneliness, of not even feeling like there was no on earth that could relate to or understand what I was walking through. And this truth of the Lord is near the broken hearted. He saves those. Christian spirit was so a reminder to my senses, to everything in me that he sees me, he sees me right now, he draws near to me. He doesn't say, oh, that's other. I can't understand it. He actually moves towards me. He saves. I did feel crushed in spirit and he's saying, and I see you in that and I'm drawing near to it. And so it sounds like the Jesus do cancer that I'm sure all of us are going to give, but it's like my weary soul and mind needs to be reminded of the true things somewhere. I have gotten a little bit pulled away from those and I just need to immerse myself back into those things. And the word does what the word promises to do, it's alive, it's active, it has a revitalizing effect that can take place maybe slowly. It doesn't happen in an instant, but man, just to be reminded that he's near as a game changer,
Speaker 3 (00:51:45):
I have found so much comfort in the spirit in this season. And I've often come to Ephesians one where it's in language where it's sealed with the spirit. You are wrapped up with him. It does not get more intimate than the spirit residing within you and being able to grab hold of that reality that when God says he is with you, he has made a way at every turn and his spirit is literally within me. He's accessible to me at any time. That has just been a huge comfort and a very practical way of the person of God is with me at all times. I feel alone right now, but I actually am not. It does not get more intimate than the spirit within me. True.
Speaker 4 (00:52:30):
I think of Exodus two, the end of Exodus two, and the Israelites are in slavery. And I've always loved where at the very end it said during those days their cry for rescue from slavery came up to God. God heard, God remembered his covenant, God saw and God knew. I love those verbs of who God, what he does. And I also think about in my own experience just recently with just like God, do you see what is happening here? Or do you see I am buried and I think a part of his rescue was my obedience to step out and to do something different and to do hard things for me, things that felt really uncomfortable for me. And so I think sometimes an answer to our loneliness is He's asking us to step out and to do something that's uncomfortable. He sees these things and then he Moses to take them out and to do hard things and he's like, I can't do it. I can't do it, but he does it and God delivers through his obedience. And so I think about both of those things in tandem. God sees, he knows, he remembers and he delivers. He will deliver you.
Speaker 7 (00:53:44):
Yeah. It's good to remember that taking things to God doesn't always mean His response to us is going to be thank you and wait, that's not always the answer. Sometimes the answer is yes, I love you. I see you and now go and do this thing. And so we shouldn't decide before we've taken something to him what that is going to be because he actually has to tell us. That's really good, Christine.
Speaker 6 (00:54:10):
Mine is Hebrews 7 25 and it hits on so many things that y'all have already said from other verses, but when the writer is talking about how Jesus maintains his priesthood permanently continues it forever, that verse reads, consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost, those who draw near to God through him since he always lives to make intercession for them. The idea that intercession that he is constantly able to intercede on our behalf Jesus is because he's right there drawing near to the Father as the Father draws near to us as Kate's first was talking about. But the thing that really kind of resonates with me in this verse is that he's able to save to the uttermost, that word uttermost it is both completely but also at all times. And so I mean he's able to, as Jesus is interceding on my behalf, that answer to the prayer is going to be completely what I need and it's going to be for every moment that I am in need, which I'm constantly in need. And so the fact that I'm able to draw near to God through Jesus and have this happening all the time with the promise result that it's going to be that salvation to the uttermost completely and at every point in time that I need just fills me with so much of that deep contentment that I need to not feel like that I'm alone, to constantly feel like I have his presence with me that is able to satisfy in the deepest way possible.
Speaker 7 (00:56:04):
One of the thing that stands out listening to the verses that you guys shared is that as we talk about taking any of our experiences, but especially our experience of loneliness to God and asking him to, like y'all said, be God with and for us, trust him to do that, that we're seeking his presence, that he's able to meet us in that. And as Julie talked about, we are wrapped up in the spirit, so we have his presence with us, that there is something really deep. In fact, the deepest way that we can feel known and be connected is through our relationship with him, which obviously is at the core of addressing this human experience of loneliness. And what's interesting about that and where we kind of again come full circle, is that loneliness is one of the things that it's not the only one, but it is something that so often gets in the way of our pursuit, of an experience of joy, that to some degree we become almost incapable of experiencing joy when we are in that really inward discontented space of loneliness. So it's just really interesting. I think it's really comforting to see that pursuing him with our need for connection is actually part of the process of actually receiving the joy that he has for us both with him and in relationship to other people. Okay, guys, as we wrap up, we've all been there. We've all been in different seasons where loneliness has felt like the primary experience, the primary feeling of what is categorizing our days. What would you say the woman listening who is experiencing profound loneliness right now?
Speaker 2 (00:57:42):
Two thoughts, quick ones. One is that first Peter five says that, and after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace who has called you to his eternal covenant in Christ will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. Which leads me to my second note, keep entrusting yourself to a faithful creator while doing good. Because with so much confidence, I can say there will come a day where you'll be grateful that you did not give up because God's keeping you.
Speaker 7 (00:58:21):
That's good.
Speaker 4 (00:58:22):
I would say to think about longing, I think once I came to embrace that longing is a part of life, everything is touched by longing because we are not home with Jesus. And so let that longing point toward him to lead you back to him and to pour out your heart to him and be honest with him about what you're feeling and what you want in relationship with him and with others. But I think just thinking about belonging is a part of life and it's a part of relationships, but then also dissecting or exploring where is the loneliness coming from? Is it in your relationship with the Lord? Is it with yourself that you can't be alone with yourself because you feel unsettled about something or I don't know what it would be? Or is it loneliness with others? And because that could lead you to a next step, do I need to dig in more with the Lord in some way? What's hindering that? Do I need to explore what's going on inside of me? Or do I need to take a step towards somebody else? If everyone's feeling this to me, that's an opportunity to be the one who initiates or reaches out to people or goes first, like, hey said, goats first and vulnerability. So those are things that I would say love that
Speaker 5 (00:59:43):
I think as word and as people, I think what Christine just said about doing the work to kind of diagnose what's at the root is so good to even know where to focus. But I'll say there have been times in my life and I believe there will be more times that will come where I will have that sense that I don't think anyone else can really understand this, just that reality of your lived experience. And what I have discovered so far in life is that God can understand it and meet me in a way that no other person can. And that really has come through his word and journaling it out, talking to him, sitting with him in it, inviting him into it. And so I would encourage you to be willing to be vulnerable with God and allow him to minister to you and see you and love on you because he desires to do that.
(01:00:48):
And at the same time know that part of his gift to you and persevering you is people. And so have you taken the step to share with someone? Have you taken the step, and I'd actually say more than one person who are two people, God's brain to mind, that you could go and just say, I'm feeling kind of enslaved loneliness right now and I need some help. Will you pray for me? Can we talk it out? Can you help me get to the bottom of what these categories are? Would you ask me some questions? Because sometimes that can be hard to do on your own. So God's word, God's people would encourage you to take steps in those areas.
Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
I kind of have hit on this a little bit, but I think I would say we've made it really obvious that in our loneliness it can be easy to, it's a natural tendency to withdraw from people. And I think I would also encourage, and Kate kind of just said this in a different way of don't allow your loneliness as a, don't view your loneliness as a source of hurt or confusion, even if that is real, to also withdraw from God in my loneliness. I can stay, I can withhold from God because there's some kind of like I'm wrestling with why am I lonely? Or the hurt that comes from loneliness or something like that. And almost like project that on God of why do you have me here? And then that keeps me from also being vulnerable in that space as well. And so I think just as much as you'll be tempted to withdraw from people, just acknowledging that you can also be equally if not more, because he's God and he has the power to do something about your loneliness, and it can potentially feel confusing that he's not withdrawal from him at the same
Speaker 7 (01:02:28):
Time.
Speaker 6 (01:02:29):
That's good. Yeah. If someone came to me and said that they were struggling with loneliness, I think I would give them a phrase to hold onto that really encompasses so much of what all of us have been talking about. And it's you're not alone. You are not alone. There are other people around you who have experienced loneliness. And so you're not alone in experiencing loneliness. You're not alone because you do have people around you. There are people you walk in the door on Sunday morning in that church. There are people there. You are not alone. Tell yourself that truth and act on it. And then make sure that you're surrounding yourself with people and with messages that you're taking in that remind you that you are not alone. God is with you. He's never forsaken you. When he said in Matthew 28 20 that he would be with us to the end of the age, it is a promise that is true and you can cling to it today. So tell yourself you are not alone, that Jesus is with you to the end of the age and then have people in your life that are telling you things. Make sure that what you are taking in is telling you that that's reminding you of that until you get to the point where you can actually feel his presence in your life. Don't let the lie reign tell yourself the truth. Amen. You are not alone. Yep.
Speaker 7 (01:04:03):
That's good. Guys. Thank you each of you so much for sharing not only what you think about this, but what you've experienced in your own life. I can say without a doubt that each of you play a role in my life of reminding me just like Annette said, that I'm not alone both in interpersonal relationships and also with God. So thank you for doing that. I think we will keep coming back to this verse, but Psalm 1611 in your presence is abundant joy, right? There's still a lot to unpack there, and that's why we're going to spend all of retreat weekend doing that. But I think understanding this aspect of loneliness as it relates to his presence, our presence with him, our presence with others is a step that believing that we are not alone is a step from this idea of presence to this idea of abundant joy and how they're connected.
(01:04:56):
Because if we don't deal with the loneliness piece, if we don't have a right understanding of that, it's going to be really hard to believe that there is joy that's accessible to us. So yeah, I'm really encouraged by this conversation and by what we're going to get to finish flushing out in March. So we'll wrap up here. Friends listening. I hope that was an encouragement to you. I hope that there's one thing that the Lord would minister to you with something that was shared today with the scripture you might revisit with a friend you might reach out to, and we've still got spots open, so we would love to see you March 1st through third. They'll go fast, but I encourage you to sign up, bring a friend, or come with the expectation that there will be opportunity throughout the weekend to connect newly or more deeply with other women there. I mean, that really is one of the biggest reasons why we gather this way, is because of our need to connect with one another. And so we're going to create lots of waste throughout the weekend to make that possible and fruitful for you. But you got to sign up to be there. So we love you and we'll see you next time. Bye.
(01:06:04):
I
Speaker 9 (01:06:05):
Almost said amen.