Repentance is an essential response for a believer who desires to grow in holiness. But what exactly is repentance? How do we identify our idols and blind spots? How do we know if we’ve genuinely repented? And how do we reject shame over things from our past we’ve repented of
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year, we’re focusing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series, we focus on holiness and repentance.
Repentance is an essential response for a believer who desires to grow in holiness. But what exactly is repentance? How do we identify our idols and blind spots? How do we know if we’ve genuinely repented? And how do we reject shame over things from our past we’ve repented of? We’ll discuss all this and more!
Christine Hoover, the Women’s Ministry Associate at our Northwest congregation, leads the conversation with two women from Northwest—Jennifer Wu and Bailey Garrido.
Resources mentioned:
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi everybody. My name is Christine Hoover, and I serve as the Women's Ministry associate at our Northwest Congregation. In our last episode of the Women's Cast, you heard from our entire women's team as we began exploring our theme for the upcoming year, which is holiness. I'm really excited to explore this topic in depth this year with our team and with you, the women of the Austin Stone. In our last episode, we talked about the connection between holiness and joy, which was our theme for last year. And we began putting together a working definition for holiness. We've been given positional holiness. The biblical word for that is that we are justified by faith in Jesus' death and resurrection. So when God looks at us, he sees Jesus. We are clean and pure before him. But the full definition of holiness isn't just about positional holiness, because as we are all well aware of, we live in this in-between space where we are justified, but we live in our flesh.
(01:06):
Galatians five talks about this. We have the spirit of God living within us, and the spirit in us fights the flesh and the flesh fights the spirit. And so when we talk about holiness, there is this other part of it in that we are called to pursue holiness, to put the flesh to death, and to live to the spirit. This is a lifelong endeavor, as we all know very well, and we call that our sanctification. So when I think of positional holiness and the pursuit of holiness, I often think of it as if we are growing up into our family name. As a mom, I often tell my boys, we're Hoovers. This is what Hoovers do. Or We're Hoovers Hoovers. Don't fill in the blank. There is a sense that we want to adorn our family name with love and good deeds, and not drag our name through the mud, through foolishness and sin.
(01:58):
And so they are. And I am learning to live out what we expect in our family, to live into the family name, that we honor one another and others outside of our family, that we stick up for one another and for the outsider or the misfit, and that we do what's right even if no one is watching. The same is true for the believer. We have been brought into the family of God. We are adopted as brothers and sisters. So we've been given the family name. That's what it means to be justified by Jesus. And in this family, there are things we do and there are things we don't do. And the reason we do or don't do those things is because our Father has said these things are right or wrong. In our family, through our holiness, we are called to live into the family name.
(02:46):
We're given this family name. That's our justification. But as we grow and mature, we grow up into the name that's our sanctification. We're putting off what doesn't fit within the family of God, and we're putting on what does fit within the family of God. Our pursuit of holiness is an important aspect of our sanctification, of growing up into the name we carry of Jesus. Sanctification is a big truth to tackle, which is why we are going to explore different facets of it in multiple episodes of the podcast in the coming months. But today, we're going to spend time drilling down into an important response if we are to experience both positional holiness and our growth in holiness. And that is repentance. Although we can't come to faith without repentance, we're going to focus today primarily on repentance for the believer, for someone who has turned to Jesus and been justified. So we're gonna ask questions like, what does repentance look like? Why is it important in our pursuit of holiness? How do we know when we need to repent? And how do we know if we're truly repentant? I think we're gonna find some encouraging and hopefully freeing truths that help us in our ongoing growth as believers. Thankfully, I am not tackling this topic alone. I've asked a few women from Northwest to join me today. Jennifer Wu and Bailey Garrido. Hi guys.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Hi. Hello.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Glad to be here. I'm so glad you're here with me. Uh, Jennifer and Bailey, I would love for you to take turns, just introducing yourselves and tell us a little bit about you. We can get to know you a little bit.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Okay. My name is Jennifer Wu. I've been going to Austin Stone Northwest for about five years. I have three children. One's gonna be in high school, one's gonna newly be in middle school and elementary next year. And, um, I love serving with Christina in women's ministry. My heart is to, um, really be in community with other women and see women grow in their walk with God and, and be involved in mentorship. And so it's exciting for me to be here with Bailey is that's how we we met through Christine.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yay. Hi, I am Bailey Garrido. My husband and I have been going to the stone with our kids for about seven years. We've bounced around the different congregations a couple of times. Landed at Northwest when it first opened and have been calling it home ever since. I volunteer in a few different areas at church. I love the church. I love the local church. It's, it's our home. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I'm happy to be here. Yeah. Glad you're here. Bailey serves as a deacon at Northwest, and Jennifer is one of my mentorship coaches. So like, that's how you guys know each other, is you have a little mentorship group. There's two other women who couldn't come today to join us, but that's why I asked y'all because you already have a relationship with one another. You're practicing repentance and confession in your mentorship relationship. Yes. These are normal things we talk about. Mm-Hmm, Good. So y'all are ready. Ready? Okay. Well, let's jump in. I would love for y'all to help kick us off by just starting with your first impressions with the word repentance. What do you think of when you think of repentance? I'm,
Speaker 3 (05:57):
I'm pretty concise. I just think of confession plus change.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
I
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Can elaborate later, but I think of those two words,
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Confession plus change. Yep. I'm similar. It's, it's coming to God and walking away from your old self and stepping into something new. Stepping into a right relationship with God.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Mm-Hmm. . Do you tend to have a positive connotation of the word, or do you kind of like, that word kinda makes you cringe a little bit.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Kind of makes me cringe a little bit. ,
Speaker 3 (06:24):
We're gonna talk about it later. Sometimes shame can be attached to it.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I feel like we really have to have a healthy relationship in our head.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
about repentance for us to wanna lean into it.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yeah, absolutely. I think it, it can be scary for people too, to think of repentance. 'cause they think of like a big holy God coming down with a hammer. And really, it's, it's a relationship just like a, a child and a parent. And
Speaker 3 (06:45):
People can think of punishment.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Um, and so it, but it's, it's actually leading in the way that we should go and not out of fear.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Mm-Hmm. , I actually think I, I've come to terms with that word in, in that it's positive. I think it's a gift.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
That God has given us. If, if we didn't have repentance, we would be stuck in our patterns, our sin patterns. Uh, we wouldn't be able to change and to grow. And so God gives us the gift of repentance that we can come to him and say, okay, we're not, I, I don't look like you. There are things in my life that I need to be different and, and will you help me Lord? And so it is a gift that he's given us in our relationship with him that we can change and grow. Uh, so I'd love for you to just maybe if you have a story or time in your life where you can look back in, in your life as a Christian, when God called you to repent, what was that like? You know, do you have a story you could tell us about?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah. I don't mind sharing. 'cause to me, I feel like kinda what Bailey said, I really have to concentrate on, like repentance is I'm turning my heart towards God. And I have a story where for three years I struggled with an eating disorder, but I wasn't truly turning my heart towards God. And I, God had to do a, a, like a, a real discipline, a breaking point. But I went to college as a freshman at ut and the stress, I think of like being away from home, the grades, the newness, I started emotionally eating. So I was going to food for comfort, and then I gained 10 pounds in one semester. So there was no joke around like, oh, freshman 15. So then not only was I sending of like food for comfort, then I got obsessed with, um, over exercising and restricting. So then I wanted a sense of control. So I had a two to three year period where on my own I was trying to gain control and lose weight by overexercising in food. Year three, I was working at a job as a waitress at a restaurant, and I slipped on some water, and my knee kept dislocated
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Oof.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
And so I couldn't work out, do anything for like months, but I think God used that to break me.
(08:49):
It was like he was saying, child, you were like obsessing about your appearance and your, and you've lost control. Like, you're gonna have to look at this. And it really reminded me of like Hebrews 1210, where it talks about like God disciplines, those he loves so that we can share in his holiness. But that forced me to be like, I have to give this up. Like God is using this. So that I turned to him and I had to really confess of my sin of like, I wanted to use food for comfort. And then, and then it led to another sin of like, and now I'm idolizing appearance, and now I'm idolizing control. So, you know, I feel like this is a strong story in my mind because it was like, whether it was stubbornness of heart or I didn't really know what to do, God had to like do something to get my attention. And so as I've grown in my faith, there's other times when like I can repent from the Holy Spirit's conviction. But this was a story where I'm like, I wasn't repenting. And so God had to do something to break my attention, which I am so thankful of because I was suffering for like so many years in that, but didn't really know what to do.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Mm-Hmm. . And so
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I had to truly like turn to God Yeah. In my heart and not just say, oh, I'm gonna exercise more to feel better. I'm gonna restrict my food to feel better.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah. Well, do you remember a moment where you knew the Lord was saying, just come to me, confess and repent?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I think I felt those nudgings when the Holy Spirit before Mm-Hmm. , but I so badly was still idolizing the appearance and wanting to lose weight and fix things. But it, so it wasn't until I literally like fell on that floor and like twisted my knee where I was like, oh, like this is really bad.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
This is really bad.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
And because I, and I couldn't work out anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
. So I, I had to deal with my own heart issues. Mm-Hmm. I had to deal with the heart issue of how did I get here in the first place?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
. Mm-Hmm. , what about you, Bailey?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I have idols in my life that try to take my attention away from what's most important. A lot of them are, are great things. One of them is my, my kids. They're all heavily involved in sports. And with fall coming up, it's like, okay, I've got the cleats for football. I've got the bow for cheerleading, I've got the knee, knee pads for volleyball, and don't forget the water bottle. And I, I get so wrapped up in, in making sure I've got everything and making sure the kids are succeeding in, in all areas. Obviously not just sports, but I forget that what they most need and what's most important is that they, for them is that, that they have a mom that is pouring out of a full cup and not out of an empty cup. Um, a mom who spends time at the feet of Jesus.
(11:11):
Um, and, and, and practicing being more like a Mary type and, and less as a Martha, even though we, we live in a, in a Martha type world. So it's, it's hard for me to, to get swept up in that. Other things is just simple things like hanging out with my community or spending alone time with my husband, or even playing pickleball. We, we just, we get all of these things and then they become my, my main focus. And I, I forget that, that God is saying like, yes, these are good things, but the Holy Spirit is nudging me and saying, but don't forget the gift giver. Like, all it, like you, you have a great life. And, and coming from a childhood where it was a little bit harder, I get, I can get wrapped up in the comfort of now and, and forget that yes, things are good now, but I need to hold fast to the Lord. And a lot of times I get busy building my own temple and enjoying and, and kind of glutton over the things of this world that it takes. It takes me falling flat on my face to realize that I need to stay in step with the Lord.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
I might feel shame and embarrassment at first, but then I take it to the Lord and like the Bible says, search me and know me and change me. And then I ask God for God's grace. And when I feel broken by my sin, I also ask him for forgiveness because I know that when he does forgive me, that's when freedom enters.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
. Yeah. We have a God who is mighty to save and mighty to forgive.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Mm-Hmm. . I think about for myself, uh, you know, I have many stories of , uh, God showing me sin and needing to confess and repent. But one thing that comes to mind for me is friends coming to me. You know, you know, I think of two different women who came to me at separate times in my life, and they said very similar things. So the first time I could kind of go, Hmm, okay, maybe, but I can kind of brush that off, like, she's probably wrong. But when the second person came and said the same thing, like, this is how I've experienced you, or this is how, you know, insane. And I knew that, that they loved me. They were my friends. They weren't coming to me to criticize me or to tear me down. And so when the second friend said the same, similar thing of this is how I've experienced you and it's kind of hurt me, I really had to stop and, and look at myself and say, oh, wow.
(13:38):
I did not know that about myself. I didn't know people experienced me like that. And I needed to take that to the Lord. And really like, kind of look at that with him. And he confirmed, you know, that, that I did need to listen to what they were saying. And that there were things that the blind spots that I didn't know were there and I needed to confess and to repent. And I think repent. We keep using the words confess and repent because they go so closely together. We can confess that's a lot easier than it is to repent. Repent is long-term change. Right. And sometimes that's a slow process, but like a ship turning, uh, slowly in the ocean. Sometimes it's like that. But that's what comes to mind for me, is realizing, oh, I need to, I need to look at some things about myself and, and I need to then go and, and maybe confirm that with other people who know me well. And to say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for how I've hurt you. Or, you know, I didn't realize that I was doing that. And I, I wanna do that differently. 'cause it's not honoring to the Lord or to you, to the people I'm in relationship with. So this, this to me is an important question. As we're talking about blind spots or we're talking about people coming to us with things. How do we know God's conviction versus self conviction? Because I grew up, I grew up very much with a lot of false guilt. Like
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
, I didn't always know how to distinguish between this is right and wrong, versus this is preference, or this is, you know, maybe this is the preference of my parents, or this is, this is the pre my preference. And so I feel like if I can't meet that standard, I feel guilt, or I feel like I've done something wrong when it's really not right and wrong. Does that make sense? And so how do we know God's conviction versus self conviction? Does, does that question make sense to you?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah. I mean, I think that's why it's important we're in the word and we know how to read on our own the word and be convicted by the Holy Spirit. 'cause we can have a lot, have a lot of voices in our head. Yeah. And we, I know when a woman discipled me a decade ago, she was like, this is why we can't always be dependent on like sermons or even reading books. 'cause you wanna read the Bible on your own and be convicted by the Holy Spirit. Not everyone's voices, you know?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yeah. Even though, even though they may have good intentions.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah. So God's word. Yeah. How do we know God's conviction?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah. I, I think of when I was in my early twenties, and I didn't know what it was like to truly live for Jesus. And I was still kind of at the beginning of my sanctification journey, I made terrible decisions and I was suffering a lot of consequences. And I felt hopeless and lost and alone. And I was just having a big pity party. And rightfully so because I was lost. But then time, time went by and, and the spirit began to, to work in my life and show me himself and how I was still my own sinful self. I was still in my, my flesh. But that my heart had changed and it was continuing to change. I made the same decisions, but this time it, it broke me in a new way.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
Hmm.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
I was, I was no longer having like a, a poor girl pretty pity party. I was, I was broken because I knew that what I had done had broken the heart of God. And I didn't know that the first time around. I just, uh, the more that I, I learned about God and, and what he and how, how he loves me and how he loves his people. I, I learned that it saddened him to watch me to choose the things over this world and, and the, and those things over holiness. And that was the first time I had felt the weight of my own conviction. And, and, and even in those natural consequences, in contrast with the conviction of God, him calling me to live in the way of holiness and in step with truth. And God did not create us to be rolling around in the mud like pigs. Um, but to be holy and set apart because we're deeply love and highly favored.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Mm-Hmm. , I love that because it's kind of what Jennifer was saying, God's heart he wants is he's a good father. And he, as we, all of us in this room are parents. And so we know what we want for our kids. We want them to have life and vitality and to walk the path of life because we know that way is the way of joy. And I think that's the same for God. He wants us to experience the very best of of life of how he's created it. And so he disciplines us and he calls us to repentance so that we can experience life as it was meant to be according to his ways. So it's like, I think sometimes we think we do have a negative connotation because we of repentance. If, if we don't understand that God's heart for us is love, and that he disciplines, as you said, Jennifer, out of love.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
for Hebrews 12. So how would you distinguish, what is our role in the pursuit of holiness and God's role in the pursuit of holiness?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I feel like our role is personal responsibility. We have to like, actually stop our lives. Listen, feel the Holy Spirit's conviction. I feel like if we're too busy running around or being achievement oriented, we're not gonna even like be able to hear the Holy Spirit's voice. But I feel like God's role is, like you were saying, the sanctification of like using the spirit to empower us in ways that we don't have the ability to do. Because I can, in my flesh try to change us in, but I'm gonna spin my wills and it's gonna be shallow. But I have to, in my mind, to first make the choice to say, this is a sin. I'm choosing to not go this way and choose a different way. And then God's role is to like intervene. But I have to soften my heart first. I have to surrender. Mm-Hmm. I have to make a choice. And not just my feelings of brokenness, but in my mind, no. I wanna make a choice and in my heart say I'm not gonna do this outta my flesh, but allow the Holy Spirit to take over.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I think it, for me, when in my growth, spiritual growth, one of the biggest things for me to learn was that God's role is to convict. That it's not up to me to, to convict myself or to keep myself regulated or, you know, to stay on track in a, in a kind of performance oriented relationship to God. But it's that he is the leader and I'm the follower. And so slowly over time, he will reveal new things. We've all experienced this, you know, some, I remember just a few years ago, I'm like, the Lord opened my eyes to some, some things in my life where I'm like, how did I not know this 20 years ago? How I should have been further along? And we kind of berate ourselves, but I think he's, he does it slowly and he leads the process so that there's some freedom to it for us. That we can trust the Lord, that he will convict us if there is something we need to be convicted now we're responsible to be in the word and to be connected to him. So we know his voice when he does. So it's like this two hands working together or a hand in a glove. Both are, both are important. What do y'all think about that?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Yeah. I think our, our part of the holiness, or, or how we pursue holiness is continuing, like y'all said, to go to the word and then just asking God, the scripture that came to mind is Search me God, and know my heart. Test me and know my concerns. See if there's any offensive way in me and lead me in the everlasting way.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Yeah. That's
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Good. So just applying that and just continuing to go to the Lord and say, Hey, like, I know I've messed up, or I don't know that I've messed up, but I had to have done something today because we're not perfect. And so just going back and just, and asking the Lord to show us, to show me where I failed. Because sometimes I do think we get kind of caught up in like, well, I did pretty good today. I think I'm okay. And really it's like, no, we've actually are we, we are so far from hitting the mark because we're not Jesus. And so it's like going back and being like, Hey, continue to teach me, continue to convict me because we're not, I'm not done. Yeah. And I don't ever want to be done growing in, in a reflection of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Mm-Hmm. . That's good. Well, Jennifer, we didn't say this at the beginning, but you are a counselor, which is fun to have you on this, um, podcast. 'cause you probably deal with a lot of, I mean, I know you do deal with a lot of people with heart issues and they're wanting to work on those things, which is really great. Why, why do you think it's so hard for us as human beings to identify our blind spots and our idols?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Okay. Well, two big things I'll talk about. One main reason is because it's been there a long time, we can get immune to it because it goes all the way back to our past issues. So whenever I see people come in for counseling and there's struggles, they have behaviors they wrestle with, it usually will have a connection. Mm-Hmm. to something hard they dealt with in the past. So if we're honest, we've all had some sort of suffering in our lives, some sort of hardship. It could be all the way back to childhood feeling rejected, abandoned divorce, people have loss, betrayal, family of origin, issues of dysfunction. And then as a result, it causes what I call these emotional wounds in us.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Where we end up developing fear, rejection, or we cope by like caretaking others or people pleasing or perfectionism. And then these things turn into idols. So I hear story after story, even myself, where maybe someone in their past maybe didn't feel acceptance somewhere in their family of origin. So then they coped by like being a high achiever. And so it's been there a while though. So then the high achieving becomes an idol. And then you add to that culture can normalize that where we hear messages like, grades are important, or being busy means you're important, or your self-worth is by what you do. So people get normalized. Mm-Hmm. those things being there. And it goes all the way back to emotional wounds from our past. So I think one way people need to deal with this then is be willing to explore how the past does affect us.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
Mm.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Um, like I'm in a Austin Stone book club right now, and all we're doing is reading Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Sczzaro. And we've all had to share, and Bailey did this with me, how have the messages I've heard from the past affect what I tell myself in my head and how does that affect my emotions? And then how does it show up in these protective layers? And a lot of those times, those protective layers become our own idols.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So that's one big reason. Oh, and I guess I should say too, what do we do with that? Because we don't wanna normalize it. Right? What we don't wanna say, oh, the rest of my life, I'm gonna be a high achiever and I'm just gonna strive, strive, strive. So that's why there's a phrase a lot of therapists use. We name it to tame it. I think it's so important that we name what our idols are. And with Bailey and Discipleship Group and other groups on in, I, I like to just talk openly about our idols. Like if we can name it, we can see it more clearly. It brings us quicker to repentance. Personally, I went to a sermon about 10 years ago, and the whole series of this sermon was called Counterfeit Gods. And the sermon was all about Tim Keller's book about idols of the heart and how we need to look at our idols.
(25:07):
And so, anyways, I have a quick handout here that I use when we Bailey and I do discipleship group. But it's a way, a tool I've created where people can identify their idols. Like Tim Keller will say anything can be an idol. The Bible's answer is that the human heart is an idol factory because we live in a culture field of idols and we can easily lose sight of what is right. So he says the definition of an idol is anything that absorbs your heart and imagination more than God. A counterfeit God is anything so central and essential to your life should you lose it, your life would feel hardly worth living. And an idol has such a controlling position in your heart that you can spend most of your passion and energy, your, your emotional and financial resource on it without a second thought. So he'll name things like even family or doing a lot at church, peer approval, a romantic relationship, competence as idols. So whether it's control, acceptance, achievement, or comfort, I think the quicker we can name these things, it helps us to be like, oh, this is probably a sin on my part. Mm-Hmm. that I've been putting my comfort, my feeling, good feelings on this area of my life when it's supposed to be a good thing that God gave me, but I use it to feel better.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Mm-Hmm. , that's really helpful. I think that one of the things that I've learned in the past few years is just the fine line between this is something God has maybe gifted me with and how I've, I can turn those things so quickly into idolatry. And so when you said things from childhood or whatever, I learned how to perform. I learned to be a high achiever growing up. But the thing is, is it worked for me. It was, it's considered a good thing. And it, like you said, it's normalized.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (26:59):
And so I think of it like a button. I would push that button and I would get, I didn't know any of these things, but I would get what I was looking for. And over time I push that button more and more and more. And eventually it stops working. And that's how I knew it was an idol in my life. But before that, I would said, oh, this is a good thing. God has made me this way. Or you know, this is this, there's nothing wrong with this. And so how, how can you know people who are listening? Like, I don't necessarily know what my idol is. How can I identify what that is? What is the button that I'm pushing?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Well, Tim Keller, like, he asks us really good questions. Like he'll say, what do you spend a lot of time thinking about? That's your ultimate concern. Or what do you spend your money on? What do you fear losing control. That's your ultimate concern. Or what do you feel discovered about myself is my ultimate concern? Or what do we want others to think about us? He'll also go in depth saying, if I lost something and I had a strong emotional reaction to it, then that tells me like, oh my goodness, maybe I'm idolizing that. 'cause I'm obviously not coping well if I lost that.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
. Um, so sometimes we have to work backwards and look at what is my reaction to things that will tell me something I'm holding onto too tightly.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Because you're right, a lot of times we can get a payoff from those idols in the past, but then all of a sudden, oops, I lose, I lost my grip on it. I don't control it as much as I thought, and now I'm not doing it as well as I thought. I wasn't able to like really let it go.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
So what do we do? Let's say we, we do recognize like, oh, I'm super, I've had this really strong reaction in this thing and I'm noticing that there's this, I think this is an idol for me, but yet there are some good things in it. You do. You know what I mean? Like, there's this line of maybe this is a gift or this is a good thing God has maybe in this way, but I've turned it into something else. Yeah. What do I do in that situation?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I think that's where God really humbles us.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (28:56):
And he says, you know what? I've given you this good thing, but you've gone overboard with it. What does it look like again for you to have your eternal perspective about this?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (29:06):
And I think that's where we really have to say, what, what has, what do I need to change about my perspective about this good thing that I can use for God's glory? And it's not for myself anymore. Yeah. That I have to have it
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
To feel okay.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I think that's the litmus test is is it about me and is it for me? Or is it about God and and for him?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
. Mm-Hmm. . Because that's a different, I can use the same thing for holiness or un holiness.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (29:35):
So
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I'm also wondering if I'm, I think I'm looking at it from a little bit of a different angle, but I had to look at areas I was thwarting because I, growing up, I didn't, we moved a ton Mm-Hmm. . And so I never had consistent relationships. Family was, you know, further away. And so there just was no community. And now I love community. I've made a very big community. And a part of that is our, our local church, like northwest. Like I love that. And I think if someone were to say, I don't know, we're gonna take that away from you, or we're gonna move and we're gonna start over, like that's something that would be, that, that, that would be maybe triggering. So I guess in a way I am answering that question. But also, and what I was saying with the thwarting is I will sometimes in my mind have these thoughts of, there's just negative thoughts. And sometimes I will, I will think or I will do something that causes disruption in like a friendship. Or I will like, I'll think something like that. They think about me, which is not true. I'll believe a lie.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 4 (30:47):
And instead of, you know, asking the Lord to help me process this, or why am I thinking this way? I'll just continue down the rabbit trail into like, oh, they think I'm horrible. They think I'm the worst person. And then I spazz out on them and they're like, whoa, where is this coming from? And I'm like, I think I thought you were gonna leave me and that you didn't like me and you weren't my friend anymore. And they're like, well, that's not true. And I'm like, oh, well, great. Just for disregard. And, and, but, but I think it's, it's because of a fear of, of abandonment. Yeah. In some ways. But instead of calling it for what it is, which could be the idle of acceptance.
Speaker 5 (31:28):
Mm-Hmm. , if
Speaker 4 (31:29):
You have the idle of acceptance, you would fear abandonment more. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And instead of calling it that, I will then I have in the past, I have thwarted it thwarted the relationship. That's a good example relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah. Good example.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
. That's good. So you did what you did exactly what we're talking about that I'm gonna name it to tame it,
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Name it, to tame it.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
The second reason why I feel like a lot of people don't see their blind spots is because kinda what Bailey and I are doing, we're unwilling to share our struggles and community and allow other people to speak truth into us. It takes courage Yes. To like, kind of do what Bailey does to say, this is a struggle I have, this is something I see. And to like, sit with others in community and to say, let's name and identify what our idols are and what those sins are. It, we have to be willing to be vulnerable and even ask permission for people to do that.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah. That's good. That's really good. And our next episode actually is going to be about holiness and community bringing people in, which, which will be super helpful. I think in talking about that. I think sometimes for me, bringing other people in can sort of be, I can hide behind selective vulnerability and not be truly repentant. And, you know, and so I'd love to talk about how, how, what is the difference between, as the Bible talks about godly grief over sin or worldly grief over sin, what would be the difference? And how do we know the difference, Bailey? What, what would you say?
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Yeah. So for godly grief, I think it talks about it in second Corinthians. Godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret. But worldly grief produces death. And that all just means that when we sin, we miss the mark and we have to turn to God and ask for forgiveness and ask for strength and grow and learn. I think an example I was thinking about was for my kids, say they're, they're playing with a ball in the house and they break a lamp and then said, kid hides the lamp, the broken lamp under a pillow. Well, then his sister comes around and sits plops down on the couch and cuts her arm because the broken lamp is there. Um, well then it just ends up getting the, the sin is like bigger and bigger. There's bigger consequences. So worldly grief sends us into hiding, but the sin, like I said, gets bigger and bigger.
(33:54):
Mm-Hmm. Whereas godly grief sends us into action and getting a bandaid for the sister and then cleaning up the mess. And then it actually takes us way back to think. Um, and I'm definitely thinking of my mom hat here, but it makes, hopefully makes the kiddo or us think, Hmm, maybe the rule that my parents have about not throwing in, throwing a ball in the house is a good rule. And not just a rule for me not to have fun, but a rule to keep us safe. And so same, same with God and godly grief. It makes us look back at God and ask him to continue to make us more like Jesus and giving us wisdom and releasing us from shame and so that we're not continuing to spiral and hide our shame and cover it up or, Mm-Hmm. just make it worse. But that we're actually coming to him and being like, oh, so that's why you say like, thou shall not lie. Or, you know, like that, like taking it back to the commandments that we, we know, but there's actually a purpose in, in there for, for our benefit.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
I love how you put that about godly or worldly grief makes us run and hide. It leads to more ripple effect, more ripple sins coming out. There's not actual change in the, in the hiding leads to greater dysfunction. Uh, and so it's, it's not true repentance. Mm-Hmm. . It's just, oh, I got caught. Or Right. Oh, that felt bad for a moment, but I'm gonna try to disregard Mm-Hmm. the consequences or how I feel about it. Or that maybe God doesn't, uh, he's saddened by that or grief by that. And so would you add anything to that, Jennifer?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
No, I think that's good. I like what you said in your story too. Like, if I really had godly grief, I'm like helping my sister of the bandage. It's like a true sorrow.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah. Like
Speaker 3 (35:39):
A true brokenness. I'm thinking of other people just not, how can I be sure I'm not gonna get punished or something. Right.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Uhhuh . And I think a sign of true repentance that I've seen is when people are truly repentant, they kind of don't care Who knows what their story is. Like they're willing for it to be shared. If it means it highlights God and his forgiveness, his mercy, or if it helps someone else. And I think there's a time, you know, until that's fully processed Mm-Hmm. We might not share all the things, but someone who's truly repentant doesn't hide. They don't feel the need to hide because they know God's mercy and forgiveness has covered over that. So, okay. How when we do repent, let's talk about how God responds to that. So he, he disciplines out us out of love. We come to him with confession and repentance. How does he respond to us? Are there verses that come to mind that would help us to know what it, what does the Bible teach us about who God is in our repentance?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
The main verse I thought of is Acts three 19 repentant and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out. That times of refreshing may come to the Lord. So I like to connect repentance with refreshment.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Talk us, talk to us more about that. 'cause I think that's really important.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Well, that's why I talked about the, my eating disorder story. Because I could live three years, like over exercising, wasting three hours of my life, counting on my calories. Or I could have refreshment where I'm like, I have freedom in my thought life. I don't have to worry about my outfits. I am focusing on God's word and what he wants me to do with my life instead of obsessing every day about like my body image. You know? So that is definitely more refreshing.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Yes. It makes holiness, makes life simpler. You know, it's like you have less burden and things to worry about and to keep straight and to, you know, this, to just spiral into this, this thought life that you're talking about. It just makes life simpler. And there's freedom and there's joy that comes with that. So the, that's what I think of when I think of refreshment. What about you, Bailey? Anything comes to mind?
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Um, I thought of First John. Um, but we confess our sins to him and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all wickedness. That just being said, in my sports mom ways, he picks us up, he dust us off, he gives us a hug, and he tells us to get back in the game. Um, because we're, we're on this earth to, to worship him and to share that good news with others. And I don't wanna let Satan discourage me or have my sin get to say so, or have us believe the lie that our mistakes are bigger than God's righteousness.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Well, let's talk about mistakes, because one of the things as believers, we can say, you know, I mentally ascent to the truth. God has forgiven me of past un holiness. But sometimes it can be really, really difficult to live with. We might struggle with shame over the choices that we've made. Or, you know, how could I have been so stupid or so foolish to have done that? How could come I couldn't see those blind spots as I talked about earlier? So Jennifer, this would be a great counselor question to ask you, how can we identify shame and how can we respond to shame over past un holiness?
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Okay, well, first of all, I think if you have to separate out the difference between guilt and shame. So guilt is like holy spirit conviction, and that's healthy. Kinda like Bailey's story. Kids need to feel convicted and guilt in order to make repair. And we all need that as Christians. But Satan, the enemy, likes to use people's guilt and turn it into shame. There's a whole book written about this, the Soul of Shame by Kurt Thompson. And he says, shame is the primary tool by which evil has been doing its business from the very beginning, the enemy is crafty, subtle, and uses doubt to disrupt our relationship with God. So you may have guilt about something from the past, but the minute your thoughts go to I'm not good enough, no one's gonna like me about this, God will never forgive me. I can't ever be used by God that anything with I'm not good enough is shame.
(39:55):
And so the problem with shame is that people wanna hide. They don't wanna tell anyone. You may even have trouble leaning into God. So it's healthy for Christians to say, I have guilt. There's something I'm repenting of, there's some foolishness. And I'm asking God to like, take that away so that I'm not perpetuating that sin pattern. And we ask for freedom to release that. But the minute we see those shame thoughts, we call it out for what it is. And we say that is not from God, that's condemnation. And then we have to really focus on the truth of Romans eight, one through two. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That's right. Because through Christ Jesus, the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. So I think as Christians, we have to know the difference between what is guilt. That is a healthy emotion. We respond to Holy Spirit conviction, and then what a shame that is not from the Lord.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
But Satan uses that to make a spiral into like dark places.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , I shared this in our first episode, but one of the, this is where, where I go when I'm like kind of spiraling is to remember that God, because he does, he is, does not condemn us. There's no, no therefore, now no condemnation for those who Christ, he doesn't speak with a condemning voice. And so the knowing his conviction, his conviction is going to be specific. It's going, he's going to zero in on when you did that specific thing, it was wrong. And it's also gonna be hopeful. It's the first John one, nine. If you confess, I will forgive you and I will cleanse you. I will help you. So there's this, come to me with it. Let me help you with this. And it's very specific rather than the general, like, you are bad or you are a loser.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
, no one likes you. That kind of thing. Um, that is not the Lord's voice. And it's also not, his voice is also not hopeless. There's no way you can change. You'll, you'll always struggle with this. Uh, you'll always be this way. You's not the Lord's voice either. And so to me, that's the voices of, of guilt.
Speaker 5 (42:12):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
And shame how it plays out. Mm-Hmm. , his, his, uh, conviction is specific and hopeful. That helps me. 'cause if I'm having these thoughts of like the more general shame, it's like, no, that's not from the Lord. Mm-Hmm. . And I'm not, I reject that. That's not from him. He speaks a better word over me. Mm-Hmm. , you know?
Speaker 5 (42:32):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (42:33):
So that's super, super helpful. Okay. Just in wrapping it up, I'd love to know how you guys would say you've grown in holiness specifically through confession and repentance in your Christian life. I think
Speaker 4 (42:48):
For me it's the, the naming it and trying to get to the bottom of where this, the sin is coming from to then be able to take it to the Lord or, or maybe work it with, work it out with the spirit to be like, why am I feeling this way? Or why did I act that way? Why did I, why do I continue to sin in the same area? Or if it's a new, if it's something new. Just being able to search myself and figure out why. Ross Lester has a quote that about repentance. It says, if you want to live a life of Right repentance of holiness, you first have a, you first have to have a clear view of self and a clear view of God.
(43:36):
And I think when I mix those up is when I get myself into trouble. And I think when I was younger, I would do one of two things. I would either get crippled by sin and just kind of hide or like just wallow in, in self shame. Or I would completely ignore it and act like everything was fine. Kind of like hiding the vase under the pe or the, the lamp under the pillow. And I would act like everything was fine and keep going and not ever address what I was feeling, why there was that sin there. And I would just keep going. Complete avoidance.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:16):
And I think it, it, it took having the community and the, my marriage to my husband to, to find firm foundation on, in this earthly world that can be a, a representation of how God loves us because he has given me this, this community and a and a husband and friendships. And so being able to know that they're not going anywhere, even with my mess, that I know that I can come to my husband and say, Hey, I'm, I'm sorry that I did this.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
And he'll forgive me. That was huge for me. And then to correlate that to the Lord, it's like, he will forgive me when I go and I seek forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 4 (45:02):
But if I don't seek it and I just put it under the, the rug or the pillow, I, it's, it's gonna keep building and then I'm gonna shrink.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah. Sounds that's really good. I would say two things. One, it's given me a faster turnaround time. Like if I see repentance as refreshing, then I have a faster turnaround time instead of like what Bailey said, like lingering. And that's in hearing the nudgings, but ignoring it, um, when I have the faster turnaround time, I'm not as likely to be caught up in those worldly sins and desires. Then I can care more what God cares about. And then that's when he can develop the fruit in me, the fruit of the spirit. So it's like this domino effect. But at the same time, I feel like holiness is such a big, like, unattainable thing. So I feel like the more I repent, the more I see my need for Jesus, the more I don't feel
Speaker 1 (45:51):
Holy. Right.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
So maybe if you say holiness as you're just more humbled, you could look at it that way. . Yeah. Um, so yeah, those are my thoughts.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Yeah. Yeah. I think too quick turnaround. But, and, and for me, I think it's like calling it, calling it what it is, calling it sin and being okay and being comfortable with like, oh, that, that is sin. And I do need to repent of that. And nothing bad is gonna happen when I admit that I have done something wrong. No one's gonna leave, God's not gonna leave. And I, I think, I think what I've been saying is like bringing it into the light, but then asking for the Lord to search me and my LTG, I'm constantly like, okay, let's, where's the sin? Let's talk about sin. And they're like, oh boy, really? Like, we just wanna, you know, it's, it's, it's like, yes, we, we want it to be easy, but it's like, Hey, let's call it out so we can get it out there. That way we can deal with it. And that way it won't be on our backs. Mm-Hmm. . And we can get freedom from it.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. refreshment. I love that. That, that's what's gonna stick with me. Uh, thank y'all so much for this. This has been a great conversation. Uh, Jennifer and Bailey, uh, friends listening, we've, we've had this conversation together today as a group. And that's exactly how it should be because repentance and pursuit of holiness, it doesn't just happen individually. It's designed by God to also include our community of brothers and sisters. And so join us next time on the women's cast as Kate Terry who serves as the women's director at our downtown congregation. She's gonna invite some downtown girls into explore with her how holiness is both an individual and a communal project, and how the, to confess un holiness is the starting point on the path toward healing and restoration. Thanks so much for listening today, friends. We will see you next time on the Women's Cast.