Community plays a significant role in our pursuit of holiness and ongoing sanctification, endurance, and joy. We all want to be known and flourish in friendships, but how do we practically extend trust and take steps of vulnerability with others as we step into holiness?
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year, we’re focusing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series, we focus on holiness and community.
Community plays a significant role in our pursuit of holiness and ongoing sanctification, endurance, and joy. We all want to be known and flourish in friendships, but how do we practically extend trust and take steps of vulnerability with others as we step into holiness? Join the conversation to find out!
Kate Terry, the Equipping and Women’s Ministry Director at our Downtown congregation, leads the conversation with two women from Downtown—Aly Denson and Cameron Crake.
Speaker 1 (00:00:05):
Well, hey everyone. My name is Kate Terry. I serve as the director of equipping and women's ministry at our downtown congregation. And I'm really excited to host today's episode as we dig deeper into the topic of holiness, which is our women's ministry theme for the year. And if you miss the last two episodes of this series, I wanna encourage you to check those out. In the intro episode, you'll hear from our entire women's team as we start to explore this theme of holiness. And then our northwest women started us off strong in the last episode talking about holiness and repentance. And each week we'll be discussing a different facet of our pursuit of holiness. And today is holiness and community. So lemme set up this conversation for us. I love last week how Christine Hoover, um, explained this necessary tension in our understanding of holiness. That if you profess Christ to be Lord and savior of your life, then you have been given positional holiness you, you've been justified in our pure, in the sight of God because your life of sin has been exchanged for the perfect obedience of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (00:01:04):
This is 100% true. And it is also true that on this side of heaven, we are on a journey of being sanctified to look more like Jesus over time, which means this holiness is something we're gonna be growing into and therefore it's something we must pursue. One of my favorite verses from Hebrews highlights us, it's Hebrews 10 14. And it says, for by one offering, he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. So through the offering of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, we've been perfected, we've been made holy justified forever. And we're also those who are being sanctified, who in the present life are still going through this process of putting off the things of the world and putting on the things of Christ. And if you've been around the Austin Stone for a while, you've heard it said that we are living in an already but not yet, meaning that our positional holiness is already secure, but we are not yet home.
Speaker 1 (00:02:04):
So the believer must pursue a life of holiness. And so that's just to get us kinda warmed up to this lovely topic of holiness and the beautiful complexity that it, it can invite us into. As you can see, there are so many layers to this topic worth discussing, and I'm really excited today to focus on holiness and community while Christine's conversation focused more on an individual's experience with pursuing holiness and how specifically the practice of repentance and identifying idols plays into that. This week, we'll open up the conversation further to discuss how our pursuit of holiness plays out in relationships with others and what role community is meant to play in that or not. There is evidence all across God's word about how our faith is, is meant to be lived out in the context of community. But let's stay in Hebrews 10 because just a few verses beyond what we just mentioned.
Speaker 1 (00:02:56):
The author explains this already, but not yet reality of a believer. So picking up in verse 19, it says this, therefore brothers and sisters, since we have boldness enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, he has inaugurated for us a new and living way through the curtain. And since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart and full assurance of faith with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. Let us hold onto the confession of our hope without wavering since he who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to revoke love and good works. Not neglecting to gather together as some are in the habit of doing, but encourage each other all the more as you see the day approaching. So we see there is this family language of brothers and sisters, a description of how we are to live and an ex of us pursuing that together. Guys, it is good news that we've been adopted into a family and our pursuit of holiness can't be disconnected from our experience within that family. You know what, that includes this very conversation. I can't do this topic justice on my own. So I'm thrilled to have two close friends and fellow downtowners with me today to help unpack this. I've got Ali Denson and Cameron Craig. And guys, I'm so glad that y'all are here with me. How about y'all take a minute to introduce yourself. Cameron, you wanna start us?
Speaker 2 (00:04:29):
Sure. Uh, so yeah, I'm Cameron. I've been in Austin for about 13 years and at the stone for that whole time. Um, and a little bit of context about my life. I am single and in my mid thirties and I'm a lay leader. So my day job is, uh, in the corporate sustainability field. And uh, I've been serving as a deacon for about a decade now, which is so crazy. I can't believe how much time flies. Um, and the team I'm focusing on is equipping. So I get to serve with you the best, um, which is the best. Uh, so I get to help create smaller learning environments to really support our people to consider what it looks like to apply God's word to their lives on a daily basis. Yeah. Awesome.
Speaker 3 (00:05:06):
Yeah. And I'm Ally, my husband Wayne and I have been in Austin about four and a half years now. And we've been attending the stone that whole time. We are empty nesters. We've got four grown kids, a lot of kind of bonus kids and a couple of grands now. So say busy with them. And I have the privilege at the stone to serve in the college ministry. Mm-Hmm. and in premarital mentoring and sometimes get to be backup in the kids' ministry.
Speaker 1 (00:05:36):
. Yes. The faithful backups. We we love that. . Thank y'all so much for being here. Let's, let's start with what I introduced our time with for each of y'all as a Christ follower in this season. What's kind of your initial response or feeling about that Hebrews 10 14 description of holiness of this already, but not yet reality are kind of some initial responses to that .
Speaker 2 (00:05:59):
Yeah, I mean, I think it captures the reality of what it feels like so well that already, but not yet many days. I feel like the not yet feels stronger on the days where I, you know, feel affected by a sin that maybe I've been struggling with for years that I just like cannot seem to avoid. Like that it feels like whack-a-mole where you're just like, see it coming up in new areas of your life over and over again. It's like, I thought I beat this thing and then here it is popping up over here. And so I can, I can feel it in that sense. But then I also think sometimes there's new things that spring up. Like I'm struggling with things now in my thirties that I didn't struggle with in my twenties. Yeah. Um, and so I think that that can feel discouraging at times to feel like, you know, maybe I, I want to feel like I've actually arrived and just yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:06:44):
You know, beaten, beaten some of those sins and struggles. But I think that one of the things that, that phrase already, but not yet helps me remember is that we are maturing over time. It's not like we're ever going to be completely matured and so . I know. Imagine, imagine that. And I think that one of the false, like equivalencies I have is maturity means not experiencing temptation. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and, and I think that Jesus even experienced temptation . And so I think that what we, or what I have to remind myself of is that that's where the already part comes in. That like he already covered us. And so I don't have to be perfect in this this lifetime. I'm never going to be, I'm gonna continue to like face temptation. And so that's just a huge relief I think, um, when I kind of properly orient, uh, the weight of the not yet with the already.
Speaker 1 (00:07:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:07:37):
That's
Speaker 3 (00:07:37):
Good. Yeah. I find it just really kind of offput when I read that. And like the declaration that I'm holy, I think I tend to have kind of that Isaiah woe is me moment, like in the presence of God's holiness feeling so incredibly inadequate. Yeah. Because I know my own thoughts, my own sin and just kind of getting caught up in that. And it almost is truly a spiritual discipline. It capture those thoughts and like shake out what is true and going back to he that that he part in it.
Speaker 4 (00:08:21):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:08:21):
That I am wholly not because of my own stuff, not because I've pushed down my flesh that I've conquered these things, but rather that before the foundation of the world God chose me. Yeah. And predestined me and Jesus did the work to transfer his righteousness onto me. And then I have the Holy Spirit in me who both seals me and continues that work. And it just kind of takes me from that overwhelmed place. And how can this be to just such a heart of thankfulness
Speaker 4 (00:08:57):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:08:58):
And how such a holy God could look at me and feel that same sacred sanctified, set apart kind of language about me. Hmm. And then there is that part of not yet that like, kind of like you were saying, you know, at this stage in my life being older, I find myself both more frustrated and more hopeful, frustrated in that my son struggles are not creative, they're not new not great. I like that one. So incredibly cyclical and like surprise God guess, guess what I'm bringing to you this morning. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:09:40):
And kind of that sometimes frustration over how old am I gonna have to be before I crack this snu before I can actually get this under control? And at the same time I get to be more hopeful 'cause I have more chapters of my life to look back Mm-Hmm. That's good. And know how I experienced that and how frustrated and how job-like, like fist in the air I was in that place. And now looking at the growth God has created from that and the sanctification, again, not that I'm there, but I can see those glimmers of hope. Mm-Hmm. And that gives me hope that God will continue
Speaker 2 (00:10:21):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:10:22):
To do those good works. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:10:23):
That's so good. I feel like something that that really reminds me of is just the, when you maybe are struggling with the same sin that you did 10 years ago, but you're actually handling it differently than you did. Yeah. And so you can see that that's good growth moment of Okay. Yeah. Maybe I still am struggling with pride, but it it feels a lot different. I can recognize it in a different way than I used to be able to. Or I have people who call it out in me, which I think we'll probably be talking more about , um, that can support me in that or that I, you know, even see it as something to repent from. Um, so that that's that's good.
Speaker 3 (00:10:54):
Very, very different dealing with it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:10:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:10:57):
Yeah. And isn't it crazy how those gospel truths, I mean, Ali kind of just walked us through to, you know, the gospel and in talking about the holiness of God and, and the reverence, uh, when we really like, recognize his, his holiness and his goodness and us in our brokenness in comparison to that, how I'm not aging out on needing to hear those reminders Mm-Hmm. . And those are reminders hitting my heart in new ways each day, month, year. Like,
Speaker 3 (00:11:28):
Yes,
Speaker 1 (00:11:28):
It's the same truth. It's the same truth. But I can confidently say from like yesterday, my time in the word to like 10 years ago, it felt like it pierced my heart kind of just as much. And I think that's the, the kind of the already piece of like Yeah. Because he's real. Because it actually is true. Like it cuts through all of the change and it cuts through all the brokenness because it's the thing that's gonna be constant. It's, it's the only unchanging thing is that he remains. 'cause everything else in our life is going to change or be cyclical in our, you know, struggle with sin. So refreshment of these truths as we start . And so maybe getting a couple layers into the nitty gritty, when we think about community in this journey of holiness, um, how much of this for y'all has felt like an individual pursuit or a communal project? Like how much do those overlap and connect? Do you have examples of what they've looked like of how it's been separate or how they've been together?
Speaker 3 (00:12:29):
Yeah. For me it's been kind of a combination of both. And unfortunately, and I really do feel like it was unfortunate in my growing up I had strong church exposure, um, strong classes and learning and teaching, but not really a focus on doing life together. Having those intimate spaces where confession was to others. I was taught confession and repentance and privacy
Speaker 4 (00:13:02):
And
Speaker 3 (00:13:02):
With God and did not have in my younger years
Speaker 4 (00:13:07):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:13:08):
Kind of that community Yeah. That we, we talk about later in life as a married person, I did have more of that community. Um, both people my own age as well as a few older women Mm-Hmm. Who served as mentors and certainly can speak to the fact that during those seasons, because I was both encouraged and also pushed to pursue holiness, that I feel like I did a lot more growing in those seasons.
Speaker 2 (00:13:45):
Yeah. I think that makes so much sense that I don't know, we can go further and faster together. And I, and I do think that, you know, the spirit can absolutely work on our own hearts individually, but I I've seen that too in my own life. Early on, I think it was maybe less around confession and more around growing spiritual disciplines and having accountability to help with that aspect of
Speaker 4 (00:14:05):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:14:06):
Intimacy with the Lord. And also realizing that it was something for me to confess and repent of, to not be prioritizing him to be kind of caught up in my own schedule. Um, and so that was kind of an early way that I felt like the Lord gave me this, uh, really cool friendship, um, early on in high school with a girl at my church who, um, we both had this similar desire to be in the word and hold each other accountable to it. And she had heard that 30 days makes a habit. And so we said that we were gonna read the Bible every day on our own in the morning for 30 days. And if one of us skipped a day, we both had to start the count over. And so Oh wow. Uh, eventually eventually we got there later. It took a, it took us a few months to get to 30 days in a row, but then we just kept going. 'cause we were like, oh, now, now it is truly a habit. It's something that we're doing. Um, it's something that we're talking about together. And, uh, by the time I stopped the count towards the end of high school, we had reached more than like 500 days. And so, so
Speaker 2 (00:15:03):
Awesome. That, that honestly ended up being something that I think changed the trajectory of my life Yeah. To, as a freshman in high school, have a person to put me on that path of valuing God's word and thinking about how I'm spending my time. And, and even though maybe it wasn't necessarily a very conscious, like confess and repent kind of relationship, it still had a sense of accountability in doing something with another person.
Speaker 1 (00:15:28):
Yeah. I love hearing the contrast in y'all's story of Ally growing up and not having as much of that influence of the community kind of discipleship around you, but you had the reinforcement of the individual like time with God and Cameron, how you explored that with a friend and community and how you benefited from that greatly. I think about my personal experience and feel really thankful that at a young age, I mean, as early as sixth grade, there was a group of us in youth group kind of similar to your, what you were saying, Cameron, that we were at church camp and there was a speaker who, it, it really just hit us like a ton of bricks. We don't know God's word in the way that we're, we're, we're professing Christ. Mm-Hmm. , but we don't know his word. We're not abiding in the way John 15 talks about.
Speaker 1 (00:16:09):
And that little group, it makes me laugh thinking about it now, that little group of sixth graders got together after the camp talk and we're like, Hey, let's read Ephesians. Let's tonight let's read a chapter. Let's talk about it at breakfast tomorrow, . And we so good. We we did. That's so precious. And here's the rule cooker, if that wasn't precious enough, I remember one of my friends as we read, read Ephesians, Ephesians 4 29 where it talks about not letting any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth. Like gossip was a thing at that age with a group of girls. And so we decided anytime we'd be in a group, um, of people and they'd be gossiping and we needed a way out, we'd look at our watch and say, it's 4 29, gotta get outta
Speaker 2 (00:16:47):
Here. . Oh my gosh. That is classic middle school.
Speaker 1 (00:16:50):
Good. Classic middle school. But hey, we were, we were taking the text. Yeah, that's great. Um, but I think about that and I, yeah, I, I I reflect on that with such like warm like memories and Yeah. Laughter, but it really laying the groundwork for my understanding of like communal, uh, uh, accountability Yeah. And helping one another follow Jesus faithfully. And it's interesting kind of in, in contrast to what you're saying, Ali, I think I had to little bit later on in my walk understand like the value and and develop some of the disciplines of the individual intimacy. So interesting and communing with
Speaker 3 (00:17:32):
God Yeah. Going the other way.
Speaker 1 (00:17:33):
Yeah. Kind of the other way. Like, I had such a positive communal experience and that's wonderful and good and right. Like we wanna celebrate that, but we have to have the other two. And I remember some, some we, we can't, it it's not real without the other. Right. For sure. Without the individual pursuit and relationship. And so it's, it's good in this topic around holiness and community to make sure we're not, um, saying that, that the community part is what sanctifies us and endures us. And is it's not a replacement. It's not a replacement. That's right. And, um, in fact, I think they, they, they feed into one another, right? Mm-Hmm. and, and making each, uh, cause our lives and the lives of those we're sharing it with to to be a place of more flourishing, maybe just camping out there in this area of community and how we're thinking about it being positive. What are maybe what's some of the messiness of community, because I, we're gonna talk a lot about the ways that it's good for us, but what would you say to maybe just as a, let's keep this in mind as we're talking about community or, or even a warning as we're thinking about pursuing holiness in the context of community. Are there things that come to mind
Speaker 3 (00:18:38):
For me? There? There are a few things. I do feel like a lot of times we who are in a congregation where strong community is really encouraged Yeah. In the form of missional communities in particular. Sometimes I think people who are new to the faith are new to living that way can experience some discouragement in that. We don't talk about all the forms that community can look like.
Speaker 1 (00:19:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:19:10):
That's good. Like sometimes that looks like accountability partner, like more of a small one-on-one or three or four people gathering together. Sometimes it does look like a true kind of small group that meets together on a routine basis. And sometimes it's just about close friendships that we have that kind of serve those roles and all of those different things. But I know in our experience, we've had a lot of like really messy
Speaker 4 (00:19:45):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:19:46):
Communities, even in the form of small groups. 'cause um, as an encouragement to people who are just starting out, sometimes you do hit a group where it just doesn't mesh. It just doesn't jam. Like it's either busyness that keeps us from meeting together or it's different peoples with different commitment levels or vulnerability levels Yeah. Where it just, you know, you're wanting to really be all in and nobody's really meeting you there.
Speaker 4 (00:20:21):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:20:22):
. And I just wanna, I guess give the encouragement that sometimes that can happen.
Speaker 4 (00:20:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:20:26):
And when it does, that's not a place to be like, eh, I'm done with this whole That's good idea. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4 (00:20:32):
.
Speaker 3 (00:20:33):
But rather to lean in because this is something God tells us to do. And like if our creator knows this is how we're wired and how what we need, sometimes it takes not very fun steps to develop that new community on top of we're all messy . I mean, we are all totally sinful, messy folks. And so yeah. We've had community groups with affairs and mental health issues Mm-Hmm. And illnesses. Mm-Hmm. And a lot of times where it's, it can be exhausting. Mm-Hmm. sometimes just Mm-Hmm. Loving on people.
Speaker 2 (00:21:14):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And I think that those are the kind of moments that you would rather not have. Like, it can be very inconvenient to be in close community. It can, it can be painful to be in close community when the people around you are going through a really hard time. But that's also the space where we get to actually be the grace of God to one another. Yeah. And so I think it is Toy's point so important to lean in because the Lord tells us that we will be known by the way we love each other. And so if you're not in community's true, how will you be known like as a believer? Because you, you have to be around people to love people. And so I think that, you know, it can be, uh, you know, disruptive to your life, but it's so worth doing because that is also meant to be kind of this, uh, back and forth relationship.
Speaker 2 (00:22:04):
It's not meant to be a consumeristic thing on my end of like, oh, I'm just gonna take what I want from this group, but I'm not gonna serve ev anyone. And it's also not meant to only be a pouring out of, oh, I'm never gonna be vulnerable and open up and let people see my needs or messiness and I'm just gonna be the one who serves everyone. Like, it's really meant to be a space where, um, you're able to have a moment where you're having a low moment and you need people to pick you up. Mm-Hmm. And then when other people are having that moment, you can be there for them. But I think that both sides of it can be challenging and messy to, to be vulnerable and to be the one in need that, uh, is coming into a space or to, uh, be affected and have kind of the blowback of other people's lives and them dealing with really hard things. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:22:50):
Yeah. And I think community also is that space, for lack of a better word, to like practice. Mm. It's good. How we can truly be, um, ambassadors for Christ.
Speaker 4 (00:23:01):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:23:01):
That idea of learning in a trusted, um, group. How to love, how to serve, how to have humility, how to listen, all of those things so that then we are out among the world, which also is super messy . That it's not like our first attempt that maybe we've actually gotten a little better at doing those things such that we can show the outside world more of Jesus because of that sanctification that happens in the community. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:23:38):
. I love it guys. I we're keeping it real today. . I love that we are clear about God's for us and community and the gift of that and the goodness of that for us, and our pursuit of holiness. And at the same time, like we want to speak honestly, that community is messy and is costly sometimes and feels sanctifying, feels exhausting. And yet please hear us say that we believe it's, it's worth continuing to try and continuing to put yourself out there, continuing to try the next group. Like I'm thinking about the seasons of communities I've had and we're, you know, in Ecclesiastes right now, and there's a season for everything. And I think about how younger Kate wouldn't have ever been able to imagine the future community a couple seasons later that he'd have me in. But how at that time when it was changing, it was really painful.
Speaker 3 (00:24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:24:24):
But he has continued to provide something different and new and unique with each season that has come. And so I, I love the threading of, of the reality that it is, it, it's God's goodness for us, but it might be messy at times, but don't let that defeat you. And in
Speaker 3 (00:24:38):
Fact, I got to truly like bask in the sweetness of that this last weekend that with work I was visiting where we raised our kids and ended up having connection points with a couple of women who I would've considered my community in that chapter. And getting to talk over things that at the time were painful, that were hard, that we spent truly a lot of tears
Speaker 4 (00:25:07):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:25:08):
And a lot of hours in prayer about, and getting to see those women and now kind of give the updates on those areas in our lives and see some of the blessing that God has poured out on those areas. And just kind of the harvest season Mm-Hmm. that we are in now. Wow. About things that 10 years ago
Speaker 1 (00:25:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:25:33):
Were wrecking us and as a community we were all in praying about Yeah. And so sweet to see those different chapters and what was a big deal. Now I then I barely think about now.
Speaker 1 (00:25:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:25:47):
Except for how good it's
Speaker 1 (00:25:50):
Yeah. That's some sweet perspective. Um, y'all, y'all have mentioned a few of these, but I'm sure there's some listeners thinking, okay, thanks for the pitch on community . This is great, but I've got a few things I kind of can't get past. And so I'd be curious to hear from y'all. When you think about integrating your pursuit of holiness into community, what are some of those practical barriers that we might run into that you would wanna share and encourage people with?
Speaker 2 (00:26:17):
Yeah, I think, I think it really takes a lot of humility to include your community and your pursuit of holiness. You have to be willing to volunteer information and to actually bring some of those ugly things in your heart to light. Um, so that exposure is a big barrier. A lot of times. I, I have already mentioned the pride struggle. I have to struggle with pride. And there's part of me that really wants people to think that I have it all together. And so I think that can be a really common pitfall. But I think that what's so great about bringing in community is that you then get not only accountability, but also encouragement of, of all people. As believers, we should be really comfortable admitting we need a savior that we're not perfect. And so I think that it's actually a foundational piece of the gospel that I need people to remind me of regularly.
Speaker 2 (00:27:05):
And so, whatever the thing is for our listeners, like they're, they might have a thing that's like, oh man, I just, I can't, if people knew this, they wouldn't wanna be my friend. Yeah. I could be rejected from this group. Or my sin is more serious than everyone else in this room. Mm-Hmm. . Like those are lies from the devil to keep you from freedom. Mm-Hmm. . And so I think that not letting, whatever that thing is, like again, God's grace is bigger than anything you could possibly confess to your friend group. And so go ahead and bring it into the light and I think you'll be able to experience a lot more freedom and grace.
Speaker 3 (00:27:42):
Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, it all comes down to our sin struggles and our idols that we really struggle with. Be it pride, be it control or approval power, any of those things that just having to take that posture of humility with our people group to consider others more valuable than ourselves, um, but will be willing to step into and be okay with discomfort.
Speaker 4 (00:28:12):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:28:13):
Is sometimes a big factor, both in the discomfort of me really being honest about what I'm struggling with and that vulnerability, but at the same time, also be willing to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (00:28:29):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:28:30):
and talking about the truth. And sometimes calling sin a sin. That's right. That oftentimes I know for me, I tend to be a people pleaser. Mm-Hmm. I like that approval. And so sometimes meeting with people and needing to be the one to step up and love
Speaker 4 (00:28:51):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:28:51):
But to call out what is sin and to remind us of what the truth is, sometimes that's difficult. Mm-Hmm. . And then also control, I would say in most of the groups that I've been in in my life, there's always myself or someone else, , who struggles with an control. And what that can look like in a group is that instead of pointing to Jesus, we tend to point to the fix and we wanna fix it and make it right. And people present in vulnerability a problem. And then we wanna, you know, wrestle it down until a solve. And sometimes that can really crush the vulnerability for the whole group. So there's a lot of barriers. This is not easy
Speaker 2 (00:29:41):
like, like
Speaker 3 (00:29:43):
We've talked
Speaker 2 (00:29:43):
About. No. And another one that I would add is just that I've seen some people stop sharing 'cause they think their community's tired of hearing about their struggles. Mm-Hmm. And so I think
Speaker 1 (00:29:53):
Which requires more vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (00:29:54):
Yeah. Yeah. And it can, and that person might feel exhausted, but I, but I do think that if you're in a particularly long season, having the, you know, still not being over the same loss or feeling really stuck, lack of vulnerability doesn't help you that can actually make you feel more isolated, more disconnected from the people around you. And so taking those steps to speak truth, to let you yourself be known by the people around you, is actually gonna serve you and your community so much better.
Speaker 3 (00:30:25):
Yeah. And that's interesting 'cause we all worry about fatiguing others, and yet all three of us sitting here admit that the sin struggles we have are like the same Mm-Hmm. over and over. So we're all truly in that place of, yeah. Again, kind of that surprise guys, guess what I've been dealing with this week.
Speaker 1 (00:30:45):
Yeah. Is there, are there any specific scriptures y'all would point to when you're, when you're even reminding yourself, like, vulnerability is worth it, . Like, this is why I'm gonna keep leaning into community in this way.
Speaker 3 (00:30:58):
I just love out of Ephesians, um, four, one through three, there's this encouragement about walking in the manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called with all humility and gentleness and patience bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace.
Speaker 4 (00:31:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:31:19):
And I just find it so cool that that vulnerability piece that we talked about that's so crucial in here, that's like right off the first one. It's all about taking that humility, um, of seeing ourselves rightly and seeing God rightly.
Speaker 4 (00:31:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:31:36):
And seeing the others rightly. Mm-Hmm. And I love that encouragement
Speaker 2 (00:31:40):
For me. Mm-Hmm. so good.
Speaker 2 (00:31:42):
I love that one. I one that comes to mind for me is, uh, in James five 16, it says, therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. And, and I think that that verse really captures what I was explaining before about like the freedom and healing that can come from sharing some of your burdens and pains and struggles with people in your life. Because there have been so many times in my life where I have had to confess something through tears. I just like did not want to actually say the thing out loud. And then my friend who's sitting across the table from me responds with truth and grace and love and the affection of God and so much tenderness, um, that is healing.
Speaker 2 (00:32:29):
Yeah. And so I think that that verse is one that I come back to when I feel tempted to hide, when I feel tempted to, uh, conceal and like run from those moments. I have to remind myself what this, the reality of this verse and also of my experience of it, that like I have, I have the fortune of having some really amazing friends who do point me back to Jesus. And they, they often are a great comfort . Mm-Hmm. and, uh, a really amazing source of like, kind of a balm, um, for your soul in those moments that feel really painful to say out loud.
Speaker 1 (00:33:01):
Yeah. There's, there's so many things about community we could talk about, but I'm hearing y'all focus in on the, the vulnerability because talking about the pursuit of holiness and so being honest about your struggles, and part of what I'm gathering is hearing y'all talk, is that we can see vulnerability as a barrier, or we can see it as a gift.
Speaker 4 (00:33:23):
A gift. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:33:23):
Because like you, some of the examples both of you just gave were like reminding yourself of I've been set free from that shame. Like, I don't have to walk in that anymore. I can, I can be honest with this group about the cyclical nature, about the struggle over and over again because Jesus died for that. And this is a progressive work that he's working out in me over time. And, and so it, it's really a perspective shift on how we're thinking about vulnerability when we're walking into that with, with brothers and sisters. And there's definitely something to be said about the environment being safe and those being trusted relationships, you know? Sure. I don't think we're called to walk around and be vulnerable with just anybody. Mm-Hmm. . But man, where you have that in the family is God. Like, it might feel like a barrier at first 'cause it is uncomfortable , and it, it, it feels exposing.
Speaker 1 (00:34:12):
Like I feel that way when I take that step of vulnerability. But man, getting on the other side of that, I'm actually like proclaiming the good. I'm, I'm believing I'm like reminding myself like, Kate, you are free. We're not, like, this is not the most true thing about you. When I took that step of vulnerability. And then the other thing I heard, which Holly, I'm so glad you brought this up, is that the way we respond in those moments, like being vulnerable as we pursue holiness in the context of community isn't about just being vulnerable, isn't about just bringing the things to the table. It's about and, and then being comforted like that, that's a part of it. But the hope then is that those brothers and sisters are pointing you back to the hope found in Jesus. Mm-Hmm. . And at times speaking the truth that you might need to hear for, for the good sanctifying like, man has community been that for me, time and time again, as I've taken that step of vulnerability, and to be frank, like I wasn't believing the gospel for myself.
Speaker 1 (00:35:07):
I needed, as I said, those crazy things out loud for the people in that room to say, Kate, like, I, I think you're not believing this. Like, can I, can I remind you of this? Like, and speak that truth back to me, even if it felt a little bit like some tough love, like it was the love that I, I needed. Right. So I love that. Um, we, we, y'all focused on kind of both sides of that, of the vulnerability, but also we don't want to forget as we're talking about vulnerability that a healthy community, especially as we're talking about the pursuit of holiness, is one that centers around Jesus.
Speaker 3 (00:35:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:35:38):
And giving each other the gospel.
Speaker 3 (00:35:39):
And also those times of vulnerability in my experience from others are oftentimes the, the moments where I'm most encouraged.
Speaker 4 (00:35:50):
Mm-Hmm. , yes.
Speaker 3 (00:35:51):
Hearing how they have struggled and how they are continuing to trust in Jesus in those moments are usually the things that kind of increases my, my hope, my trust, my faithfulness. So again, in the vacuum of not having that, we're also not encouraging each other. We're not being the redeemed in saying so. Yeah. I mean, that's right. I mean, it really is the lack of the say so that yeah. We need to be about being in those spaces to say, I was here and God has delivered me to hear.
Speaker 1 (00:36:25):
Amen. Amen. So good. Y'all, I I'd love for y'all to share a little bit more about what this has looked like in y'all's lived experiences within marriage and as a single. And so Ally, I'd love to start with you. You and Wayne have been married for over 30 years, which is amazing. Yeah. Crazy. Congratulations. Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (00:36:44):
It's crazy. You know how we're so young, ,
Speaker 1 (00:36:46):
We're so young. It's right. 30 more. Let's go.
Speaker 3 (00:36:49):
We were babies. we're very obviously,
Speaker 1 (00:36:51):
So y'all had a, you know, front row seat to the sanctification process. Yeah. of two becoming one. Right. And, and that's God's plan A for marriage. That's how he's authored it. And it's meant to be this beautiful pointer to the shape of the gospel as we see husband and wife. Mm-Hmm. sacrificially love one another as Christ loves the church. And so my question is, man, what have you learned, like the good or the hard way about how to cultivate that relationship with marriage, uh, within marriage where this experience of sanctification, um, is healthy and God-centered, what advice might you give even to couples a few years into marriage?
Speaker 3 (00:37:24):
Yeah. That's, living life with Wayne has been such a gift.
Speaker 1 (00:37:31):
He's amazing. Truly
Speaker 3 (00:37:32):
Such, such an honor. I love him. I mean, and how blessed am I that 30 years in, I can truthfully speak to I adore Mm-Hmm. , my husband and I likewise feel adored, which is so amazing. But truly in marriage you can't escape sanctification, , I mean, you know, it starts close quarters , it starts at the toothpaste tube, you know, and goes from there. But there, there certainly is no escaping it. And learning to do that just kind of happens in some ways, whether you like it or not. And the truth is, if you're in a marriage where you're both pursuing Christ in drawing nearer to Christ, you're also drawing near to each other.
Speaker 3 (00:38:18):
Mm-Hmm. and that great gift that that is that when I spend time with God, not only am I sanctified in my relationship, but I'm also giving that to my marriage and making that stronger too. On the flip side of the coin, , it also is this accountability partner that you can't hide stuff from. Like, and I wish I didn't have to admit that I do, but when I throw like the snotty 3-year-old tantrum at the end of the day that's totally born out of my own selfishness and a need to be seen and heard and all of those things, like I can't then pretend that it didn't happen. Like it just Mm-Hmm. played out. And there's some like call to being accountable to what you just did . And so sometimes that part is hard, but it's also great to have someone who loves me that much, who is invested because he is me. He is one flesh with me.
Speaker 4 (00:39:24):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:39:24):
In making sure that I'm reminded of the truths of God's love and that I'm in a place where my sin is called out and it's called what it is. And that is such a great opportunity. Now as a wife, some of the trickier parts for me are sometimes I will look and have, um, maybe some gripes about Wayne and sometimes have to check myself a little bit about where am I attempting to help him conform into the image of Christ. And when I'm trying to make him conform to the image of what I want. Yeah. And those being very different, , different things. Um, some of those, not sin, but just my desire Mm-Hmm. and learning how to really separate what those are. And then kind of the second one, and this is a little hard to put into good words, but the reminder to kind of stay in the role that God has given me, that I'm not called to be Wayne's savior.
Speaker 4 (00:40:32):
That's
Speaker 3 (00:40:32):
Good. And I'm not called to be his Holy Spirit. That that's not my name. . My, my name is Ally and I'm called to be his helpmate. And sometimes I feel real quick to have my feelings and then express in words my gripes, the things that I would point out, you know, the, the wood in his, when I've got the log in mind situation. Mm-Hmm. . And just the learning to again, stop and take those things to God.
Speaker 4 (00:41:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:41:05):
Take that to prayer, look at the scripture and help kind of discern what if that really needs me to speak to and what just needs me to pray about. And God is so faithful in that I find that when I truly will stop, be humble, bring it to God that almost inevitably within a couple of days, Wayne will come to me about the very thing I was praying for and talk about how God keeps bringing it to his spine.
Speaker 4 (00:41:39):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (00:41:40):
And we get to have a good and like fruitful conversation. Mm-Hmm. versus like just wife picking on you
Speaker 4 (00:41:48):
Mm.
Speaker 3 (00:41:48):
Stuff. Nagging type behavior. And that has been just so good for me to learn.
Speaker 1 (00:41:54):
Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. Wealth of knowledge, ally , um, wisdom, really. Wealth of wisdom.
Speaker 3 (00:42:00):
Well, wealth of mess up through
Speaker 1 (00:42:02):
Through the trenches.
Speaker 3 (00:42:03):
Experience. Yeah. Experience.
Speaker 1 (00:42:05):
That's right. That's right.
Speaker 3 (00:42:06):
I've seen it gone go not well. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (00:42:08):
That's right. What, what would you add about the way that community has played a role in the flourishing of Y's marriage and some of that
Speaker 3 (00:42:16):
Community has played such a role, both in us having the opportunity to love people together, serve people together. Plus it is so good in a marriage to see your spouse's skills and gifts from God get to play out in front of you. Yeah. While you get to observe. I mean, I even think of a cute young couple that we've talked about and they're like presenting to the parents possible engagement, but wanting to run their financial plan by Wayne so that he could poke holes in it before they took it to the dad. You know? And I love getting to see how God uses the things that are unique about him
Speaker 1 (00:42:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:42:58):
To serve the kingdom and to serve our larger community. I also believe it is essential for a married couple to have community so that each sex can have their own people to hold them accountable.
Speaker 4 (00:43:16):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (00:43:17):
Because within a marriage there will come up issues and problems that the spouse does not need to be the accountability partner
Speaker 1 (00:43:27):
For. Yeah. That's good.
Speaker 3 (00:43:29):
Places where if there is a sin struggle, the other spouse does not need to hear about all of the every detail confessing
Speaker 1 (00:43:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:43:38):
And repentance aspect that say if Wayne were struggling, he needs another man, a godly man to do that with him. That's good. Same way I need to be surrounded by godly women. So if I tend to start griping, they are quick to call me to hold the respect that I should have for my husband and how that's about me dealing with my own sin struggles, not about fixing him.
Speaker 1 (00:44:05):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (00:44:06):
Yeah. And we need that. That's good. It's so important.
Speaker 1 (00:44:09):
So good. Cameron, let's, let's hear from you a little bit. You are single and dating and have a very full life of amazing professional responsibilities, ministry service and rich friendships both with singles and marrieds. Um, I see you as someone who is really viewing their singleness for as long as that is the case, as a God-given gift and an opportunity to display the sufficiency of Christ. And so considering pursuing holiness and community, um, in this current reality in your life as a single, um, what have you learned about pursuing holiness and community? What have been important truths for you to remember as you practice that?
Speaker 2 (00:44:46):
Yeah, I think the place that I always start with this is that singleness does not mean being alone Mm-Hmm. It doesn't mean isolation. It does mean that it takes a different kind of effort to create that kind of constellation of people in your life though, because you don't have that built in person who you have a covenant with. And so you need to have a few close friends who have all your cards.
Speaker 4 (00:45:11):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 2 (00:45:11):
Um, and, you know, just as that is important in a marriage like it, it is just as important in singleness to, to really have people of the same gender, but also like people as brothers and sisters in the family of God. For me, I found so much joy and encouragement from some of my male friends who have been able to speak to me and encourage me in ways that are unique and, you know, being able to be in the family of God and be appropriately vulnerable with them. Mm-Hmm. about like hard things that I'm going through. And so really having that community takes time and energy. So it's not something that happens naturally. You don't tend to just fall into these kinds of relationships. Yeah. You actually do need to be conscious of building them and investing in them over years. And, and I would say that, you know, I think we've referenced this that like not every relationship is like a safe, trusted relationship. And so understanding how to cultivate those and how to recognize them, I think is really important to be able to think like, okay, I'm gonna share a small vulnerable thing that doesn't feel too risky. See how this person responds.
Speaker 4 (00:46:16):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:46:16):
If it goes poorly, like maybe they're not my, not gonna be my accountability partner, maybe we're not gonna invest in that way. Well, they'll, they'll be my friend, like my fun lunch friend, . Um, and you know, then there's people who it's like, okay, I shared this thing and they, they pointed me back to Jesus and they followed up with me the next week to check on me. Like, those are the kind of things like when you see those patterns of friendship in your life to hang on to them because they're so important. Um, another thing that I do think can be challenging uniquely about accountability and singleness is how much you have to volunteer information. I live alone. I have friends that do see me on a weekly basis, but they're not seeing me lose patients over my neighbor's trash can being out. They're not seeing me slam my laptop shut when it doesn't start on time for a meeting.
Speaker 2 (00:47:05):
Like, there's a lot of moments in my life that are unobserved, and so I have to bring them and bring them into the light, bring people into those moments, share them, and in a vulnerable way that's different than someone who has a long track record of like, seeing me day in, day out, like all my flaws and all my broken moments. And so I think it's really important to just recognize areas where you might be tempted to hide and also to then create environments where you get asked hard questions. And so in, in my accountability group over the years, one of the common questions we've asked each other is, is there anything you don't want me to ask you right now? . Okay. Um, is there anything else like going on in your life that you don't really wanna share, but that you probably should?
Speaker 1 (00:47:53):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:47:54):
Um, so those have been some of the things that we've tried to cultivate among some of the single women in my life.
Speaker 1 (00:47:59):
Yeah. Cameron, I know we've talked about this quite a bit, whether it's our personal lives or, or ministry that we're involved in together and, and goodness, I just had these conversations with Ally as well, and it being this area of sexual integrity.
Speaker 1 (00:48:12):
Mm. And it's hard to, we could do a whole episode, so Yeah. We're not gonna, we're not gonna be able to camp out here long. Guys. Maybe, maybe, we'll, maybe we'll do a bonus episode. Allison, I'll talk to you about that. But let, let's at least like spend just a moment because I'm sure for, for many in their pursuit of holiness, maybe the first thing that comes up is sexual temptation and, and pre previous sin in their life. What if that's within marriage or not? And so any, anything y'all would share as it relates to pursuing sexual integrity in, in the midst of community? The and what Yeah. What advice, what wisdom you might give.
Speaker 2 (00:48:46):
Yeah. I, I think that the sexual integrity piece and being vulnerable with your community about that and singleness is so important because what we believe about, uh, sex being expressed within the covenant of marriage means, um, celibacy for the single person. Mm-Hmm. . And that goes so against the grain of our culture today, that we need reinforcement from friends, um, who have similar beliefs to encourage us to help us in, um, resisting temptation in, in creating boundaries that are for our good, whether it's around like media consumption or the people that we're spending time with, or the way that we're talking about the opposite sex. Like, there's all kinds of ways that we can just get caught in the, like, onslaught of what our culture is saying about sex. Um, and I think that in particular, like the idea of celibacy to our culture, it could be anywhere in the range from like pitiful to repressive.
Speaker 2 (00:49:42):
And so I think that it's really important to have that Christian accountability, um, so that you don't feel crazy for the beliefs that you hold. And I think that it's so important to just acknowledging that everyone is sexually broken and different people might struggle with different things in different seasons. And so, you know, I I just have friends in my life who asked me like, regularly what sexual sexual integrity looks like. And that mm-Hmm. opens up the door for me to share what's been tempting, where I've been struggling, where I need prayer and for, for my accountability partner. And I, like, we have kind of a role of like, uh, within like 24 hours of like having some kind of like sexual sin experience. Like we want to be confessing because we don't really, we don't wanna leave any space for there to be this foothold of well, you know, that maybe wasn't that bad.
Speaker 2 (00:50:35):
Or like, I, by the time yeah, by the time our like, you know, next meeting comes up, it's two weeks later and I forgotten about it conveniently. Mm-Hmm. , conveniently . So I think that, yeah, I think that we don't wanna let something fester and also then give each other the opportunity to extend grace and remind each other of truth and like why God's way is actually better. And we actually talked about this a couple weeks ago at church in, in one of the Psalms sermons, Stephen was preaching Mm-Hmm. . And he called out that confession is not a sorrowful consequence, it's a path back to joy. And I feel like, come on, for me believing that around sexual sin, I've just really found that my heart doesn't believe that. It does feel like a consequence to confess.
Speaker 4 (00:51:20):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:51:20):
And so that's something I've been really wrestling with with the Lord, um, since the past few weeks of just being like, okay, God. Like, help me believe that joy is found in confession, repentance.
Speaker 1 (00:51:30):
Yeah. It's such a big topic. , anything else? Yeah. Y'all ally, you wanna speak to anything or?
Speaker 3 (00:51:36):
I, I would just add that while within the marriage covenant Mm-Hmm. , um, there is that sexual relationship that we married people are, every bit is broken and there's still all of the temptations and Mm-Hmm. Continuing to have Yeah. Um, godly same sex people to hold you accountable in those ways too. Because sexual integrity is not a commitment that we do until we're married. It's a commitment that we follow until death. That's good. And so, I mean, we certainly in our culture see so many marriages fall apart, um, because of sexual sense. So continuing to hold each other into accountability even in marriage is so important to
Speaker 1 (00:52:21):
You. Mm-Hmm. . So good. Before we move on from, from thinking about singleness and, and marriage, um, y'all have mentioned some of this, you've used some brother sister language. You've talked about marriage and singles in your life. I'm curious, anything else you'd add about the value of diverse types of relationships in your life as it relates to community, as it relates to those that you're, you're discussing that pursuit of holiness with like, where is there value in diversity? I know, I know for me, and I think what I've observed as well is there can be a natural gravitation towards sameness, but I've experienced a lot of fruit from diversity of relationships in my life. So what would y'all say on that?
Speaker 3 (00:53:02):
For me, I love the diversity weirdly enough for me at down, we're at the downtown , um, congregation. And so sameness for me looks real difficult to find . Mm-Hmm. . And if anything, one of the struggles I've had in the last couple of years is not having the same
Speaker 4 (00:53:23):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:53:23):
Um, and we've had to intentionally kind of develop those friendships just to have someone that I do think it's important for us to have a few people in our community at least Mm-Hmm. that are the same age and stage. Just because quite like in total transparency, if I look at a mom of littles and tell her that I'm about ready to choke out one of my adult kids, , she's gonna be a little horrified with that like concept. Never, because those are not her feels, and yet that's real life experience. You need to Bence for me, same. This is not bad. Yeah. I need to be able to have a same or similar life person in order to Mm-Hmm. talk through some of those struggles, um, process some of that. But I love the diversity because there is so much richness. And for me personally, it has grown my compassion, my empathy in some areas where I may have had more of a judgmental kind of viewpoint or just had no experience like they have for them to be able to share it. Also, like sometimes there are seasons in life that people are more passionate about their faith and to help kind of reawaken that when you're in a season that isn't as passionate and although sometimes that diversity can make schedules really wonky,
Speaker 3 (00:54:56):
There also can be some good in that when you have mixed ages, the people with littles have singles or older people to help babysit those littles. And all the different ways in between that we can serve each other and better ways. And do you have like a great example of this diversity from this weekend? Another little seminar I was teaching, and a lot of this was for some older teens talking about sexual integrity, talking about sexual sin. And afterwards one of the moms came up and was, um, so sweetly giving words of encouragement about how I had presented same sex attraction
Speaker 4 (00:55:41):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Speaker 3 (00:55:41):
And discussed it as a sin struggle and not as sin. And she talked about some of that phrasing and wording had really just kind of changed her outlook on that and had been very meaningful. And how great, because all of that wording came out of a sweet community in an equipped to counsel class.
Speaker 4 (00:56:08):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Speaker 3 (00:56:09):
Where a young man was with me who had that struggle. And he and I had lots of conversations and worked out how to communicate that struggle effectively to parents of teens so that they can walk alongside those teens a little better. And it was just such a beautiful picture of what that diverse community can offer.
Speaker 1 (00:56:34):
Mm. Amen. That's so thank
Speaker 2 (00:56:35):
You for sharing that. Yeah. That's so good. Now I, I think I've seen so much beauty and diversity, and I think it's so important to have Yeah. Different friends speaking into your life, uh, and vice versa at all different stages and ages. I think that, you know, one of the pitfalls I can fall into as a single person is imagining that if I was married, all of my problems would be solved . And it's just debunked so quickly, when I have married friends in my life and, and similar to them, like when they look at my life and like, oh God, you have so much freedom, you can do whatever you want with your time. Mm-Hmm. like, yeah, I'm not perfectly happy and I still, like, I still, I can't just like go off to Iceland on a weekend like I have sometimes I do, but like, very rarely .
Speaker 2 (00:57:17):
And so I think that, you know, there's real benefit to having people in a life stage where maybe you think, gosh, the grass looks greener on that side. And then them being able to invite you over to see like what that actually looks like. And when you're living life up close, like I feel like what I've learned so much is just that one age or stage isn't like better or worse than the other. They're just different. And the Lord can use those circumstances of our lives to teach us things and to refine us and to make us look more like Jesus. And he gives each of us different unique circumstances to do that for us. And he's doing what's best for each of us uniquely. Um, and he knows us. And so he is, he's forming us that way. But I think that, yeah, I've, I mean, I've seen this, I, I, a story came to mind when, when I was thinking about the life stages of a young college guy that was in, uh, a ministry that I'm serving in Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 2 (00:58:11):
And he was talking about singleness and how, you know, he was 24 new grad and he was like, I'm loving singleness right now. It's so amazing and I have this great community. And he was like, but I just have so much anxiety about being in my thirties and being single. Like I, like in 10 years, how am I gonna feel when all my friends are married and they have kids? And like, it's really good right now, but like, I just am experiencing so much fear around this. Mm-Hmm. . And I looked at him and was like, hi, uh, , I I'm living your nightmare . Um, and it's okay. Like, and, and the Lord has given me a lot of joy and satisfaction and fulfillment. And the God who's faithful to you at 24 is gonna be faithful to you at 34. Amen.
Speaker 2 (00:58:50):
And, and that was really good for my heart too, because I also look ahead and say, Collie mid forties and single is gonna be hard or mid fifties and single, whatever that might be. And so as, as good as that moment was for me to encourage him, like, it also encouraged my own heart to remind myself of truths that I need too. And, and I think that that's so often what we find when we're, when we're sharing our lives with our community, we get to encourage other people, but then we receive that encouragement right back by our stories being used and then by hearing truths that, that we need to believe ourselves.
Speaker 1 (00:59:24):
Yeah. So, good. Guys, as we kinda wrap up, I wanna, I wanna give, give you all this question to think about and share. When I think about healthy community, one that is pursuing holiness together, two really, like beautiful like byproducts or fruit kind of comes from that. It's this community that is experiencing lamenting costs together. Like as we're bringing the burdens of our sanctification process of our cyclical nature. Like, part of that reality is us walking the path Jesus laid before us of saying, Hey, like following me means picking up your cross and denying yourself. And that that road is gonna feel narrow at times and it's gonna feel we're gonna be dying to ourself over and over again in all these kind of different ways. And so a community together means that you, you have moments where you get to lament that reality together and you get to lament some of the costs that Jesus might be saying, Hey, it's better for you, uh, to count that as a cost for the sake of knowing me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
And you don't have to do that alone. Right. And so I think that's one of the beautiful, like fruits that I've seen come from a community that's pursuing holiness together. And then the other is, the other side of that coin is a community that celebrates faithfulness with one another. Yeah. That would, when we're actually in this journey of pursuing holiness together, not only is there the communal moments of the burden being lifted through lamenting and being reminded you're not alone, but then there's the moments of like brothers, sister, you're doing it like, keep going . Like, I'm so proud of you, and like, God is honored by what you're doing, and we're gonna celebrate your faithfulness. And you get to have these family moments where you're celebrating together. And man, I, I want, I want every believer to have a taste of that this side of heaven, because I believe God has designed us for that. And yeah, I might be clunky and messy, we've said that about community, but I believe that that is what God's wanting to invite us into. And so I would just ask y'all, um, when you think about that, when you think about the, that shared experience of lamenting costs, celebrating faithfulness with community, how has that impacted your joy as you pursue willingness? How has it impacted or reinforced the truths about God? How has it just encouraged you as a, as a Christ follower?
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
So something it's done for me is expand my capacity to hold things. And I think that what I've been able to see is in those moments where you grieve with those who grieve and rejoice with those who rejoice. Like I feel like I experienced so many more emotions than I did, um, a few dec a decade ago, a few decades ago. Because I am opening myself up to the real pains of other people and letting them affect me. Like when I'm watching my friend, you know, spiral with anxiety over something her husband's struggling with, or when I'm going through the death of my friend's mom, like there's these moments that bring me low with 'em that like can feel really heavy and painful and, you know, take you into those negative emotional spaces Sure. That we tend to try to avoid. But opening ourselves up on one side to those sorrowful emotions, I think also grows our capacity on the other side for more joy. That's so good. And so when you see your friend then experience healing, when you see those moments of beauty come from ashes, like those are the times where you're like, wow. Like, God, you've done so much and I now have this depth and breadth like on both sides that I think is really rewarding and, and enriching. So good.
Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Yeah. And I would just kind of echo that. I think even within that community, having the bonds that hold each other up when things are really hard Mm-Hmm. kind of that idea of sharing the burdens
Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Is also incredible. And what you learn to stretch kind of that development of perseverance. Yeah. And, and that those troubles and how they lead to hope, because in those times it is that constant point back to Jesus and how he is the final answer in both the thing, the sin struggles and then just the life hurts and the suffering. I know that in our own small group. Mm-Hmm. , we had a lot of battles with cancer in the last couple of years. Mm-Hmm. and watching people love God, trust God, even when lives were on the line and kids and what that looked like and getting to hold each other up and having fresh opportunities to serve and learn what really being there for people looks like. Um, getting to practice some of that and then getting to celebrate when the physical healing happened for one. Yeah. And getting to mourn together Yeah. When God took the other one home.
Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
And getting to see what all of those stages of life and it truly being okay. Mm-Hmm. because God's sovereign and he's good, but sometimes that one's super tough to live out, learn out by yourself and it is so much easier in a community.
Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. What a great place to wrap up the conversation guys. Thank y'all for your vulnerability, as we said near the beginning, keeping it real, um, about the beautiful truths of God, but about the realities of what it means. This side of heaven, the already but not quite yet home, but that along this journey and the not yet home, he's given us brothers and sisters. He's given us people to journey with it together. And I'm really thankful to call both of you friends. So thank you for joining me today, friends listening. Thanks for being on this journey with us through this conversation. Um, we hope that it gives you courage. We hope it gives you courage to pursue holiness and invite and community as you do it. Vulnerability is hard, but God has adopted you into a family to be known. So keep leaning in with your brothers and sisters in Christ. And if you go to our church and you're listening to this and you don't know where to start to find community, please reach out. Um, we want to help connect you. It doesn't have to be something you figure out on your own. So please reach out to any of our staff. Okay. Keep following along with our Holiness series because you're in for a real treat. The one and only Julie Tuli, my roomie, will be hosting our next podcast and facilitating a conversation around holiness and freedom. Thanks for listening, friends. We'll see you next time.