Join Misti Echols and returned goer, Jen C. in a conversation around how loss has led the two of them to not only know Jesus better, but to see others know him too.
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women’s Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year we’re focussing on the theme of holiness. In this episode of the series we focus on holiness and loss. Loss can feel like a big topic, and sometimes it’s easy to believe a good God wouldn’t take us through a life full of loss. Join Misti Echols and returned goer, Jen C. in a conversation around how loss has led the two of them to not only know Jesus better, but to see others know him too.
Misti Echols (00:03):
Hey, women of The Austin Stone. I'm Misti Echols, and I serve as the equipping and women's director at the St. John Congregation. I'm so glad to welcome you back to the Women's cast. If you've been tuning in over the last few episodes, you'll know that we're knee deep in a conversation around holiness. We've laughed and cried listening to stories of how community, repentance and freedom have led our women over and over again. Back to the idea of just how good holiness is. We know as believers that we receive the gift of positional holiness through Christ's death and resurrection, which justified for all time are sin and wrong sitting with God because of the cross. When God looks at us, he sees us without blemish. We also know that this gift of grace should lead us to a life of pursuing holiness, which isn't just the removal of sin from our lives, but is also our conformity to Christ and our desire to be more and more like Him as we await his return.
(01:01):
It's that churchy word sanctification that is explained as this in one Peter, one as obedient. Children do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you as holy, you also be holy and all your conduct since it is written, you shall be holy. For I am holy. As you've heard over the last few weeks, there are many aspects to our sanctification worth studying, discussing, and celebrating. Today I'm joined by an incredible woman from our body who just might be an expert in an area of sanctification that nobody wants to be an expert in. ls. Jen, I know that's quite an intro. Do you wanna say hi?
Jen C. (01:42):
Hi. It's so good to be here, . It is quite an
Misti Echols (01:45):
Intro. Thank you. Do you wanna give just any more context into who you are, how long you've been at the stone? Sure. Any of your background?
Jen C. (01:53):
Yeah. So I started the stone in 2008, actually very long time ago. And uh, was at the stone, had a little bit of time at a smaller church, and then came back in 2012 and went overseas as a goer for the stone in 2013. So I was overseas from 2013 to 2020 as a partner at the Stone, and then came back to the States in 2020 and partner at St. John's since then. Had a little time off, went and got my master's degree in Chicago, and so was away for a little bit. But now fulltime St. John's, partner C's
Misti Echols (02:32):
Here
Jen C. (02:32):
Back in. Yes. So good to be back.
Misti Echols (02:35):
And you and I met some point in that stint overseas. Mm-Hmm.
Jen C. (02:38):
.
Misti Echols (02:39):
When would that have been? Do you remember?
Jen C. (02:41):
I think it was at our goer gathering in 2017 would be the first time you and I met, if that's, I remember correctly. And then 2018 we had a goer women's retreat where you and I got to sit under teaching of someone who taught us a ton about loss and holiness. And you and I, I just remember you and I processing that.
Misti Echols (03:02):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Jen C. (03:02):
Uh, when we were learning what we were walking through in our own lives at dinner tables and in between sessions. And so Yeah.
Misti Echols (03:10):
Yeah, we did. Which is really sweet. When I asked you to do this, I feel like you brought that up and you said it feels like we just get to continue a conversation we had. Mm-Hmm. How many years ago was that? Five, six years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm really glad you're here with me today. Thanks. Okay. So loss is a huge topic to tackle as we've prepared for this time. I've felt the Lord lead me into some buckets, if you will, um, for how we could start to categorize and digest the different ways loss is connected with holiness, because sometimes God writes loss into our stories in order to help cultivate holiness in us. And other times we feel loss as a result of pursuing holiness. Okay. So the, the categories I think I see here that have kind of come out as themes would be, one would be the loss of a good thing.
(03:57):
So things that come to mind here would be the calling as believers to set aside all good things for the surpassing weight of knowing Christ Jesus. We see that in Philippians three. Another category that we could dive into would be the loss of our flesh and how as believers we're called to put to death the deeds of the body. Romans eight. Um, and then maybe, you know, the most obvious one that we would see would be suffering loss in the form of suffering. Curious if you would add any categories to those before we kind of dive into
Jen C. (04:26):
Them. Yeah. I actually, Misti, I knew you were gonna ask this, and I thought long and hard and I wanted to come up with something super spiritual and add a bucket, and I'm like, I don't, I don't have a bucket. I . I think that covers it beautifully. Um, yeah, I do think it's important to acknowledge the different types of loss, and I'm glad we are. Mm-Hmm. Um, because my story of loss is different, the types of things that I call loss Mm-Hmm. are different than what others are going to maybe expect when they hear the word loss. Yeah. See the word loss. Right. So, I just wanna acknowledge this is a topic. The idea of loss is, is uniquely painful for so many people. And so we don't wanna undermine that. We're gonna talk about it certain types of losses today, but that may not necessarily feel as relevant for people who have had things taken away from them in certain ways. Yeah. Or, you know, obviously death. Right in That's right. Tremendous category. And so, yeah, I just wanna acknowledge that this is a very nuanced and complex word.
Misti Echols (05:33):
Mm-Hmm. .
Jen C. (05:34):
And so, although I'm, I wouldn't say there's another bucket necessarily. There's, there's a lot that can be said in all of these different
Misti Echols (05:42):
Categories. Yeah. And maybe you have a lot more in one of those buckets and someone else has, and maybe someone else has a lot more in a different bucket of loss. Yeah. So, okay. Well, let's jump into some questions within that first category that, um, I mentioned, which is the loss of a good thing, the things that maybe come to mind of what we're called to as believers to set aside. I would love to hear some of the first things that might have come to your mind when you picture good things you've given up in pursuit of
Jen C. (06:09):
Holiness. Hmm. This is interesting because I think that the, the natural bent obviously is, is to go toward the, the goer calling that calling to leave home and family and friends and church and jobs and, and all of that stuff. And so I'm gonna go ahead and go that direction. 'cause I think it's the most mm-Hmm. logical. Um, it's the most obvious category in my life of where God has said, I want you to leave behind these things that, uh, are good gifts. Uh, before I left Austin, I had a job that I loved and cherished, and a community that I was really, really close to, and rich community and a little apartment that I loved. And to feel called away from all of that was, it's, it's interesting 'cause it was, that was over 10 years ago now, that I felt that calling toward the pursuit of Christ and what he was doing in my life and inviting me into.
(07:10):
So it, it's getting a little fu The memories are a little fuzzy of what that all felt like. Part of me remembers that it was exciting. I was, I was thrilled to kind of go on this journey with the Lord in that calling. And I think I sometimes forget that there were days of just absolute salute, um, shock almost mm of everything that I was setting aside and knowing that it was unlikely that once you set that aside, you don't go back to it. Even if, okay, I go overseas for a year and I come back to Texas, which that wasn't my intention. My intention at the time was to go overseas forever, as far as I knew. But to, to know to, there, there's this moment where it hits that I will not come back to this because the, when I leave it and walk away, it starts to transform in, in my absence.
(08:02):
And so I do remember, uh, having some moments of realization. I think the Lord was tremendously merciful that, uh, you don't really know what you're giving up. Uh, you can't feel the full weight of that in advance. So I don't think I ever felt the full gravity of it ahead of time. I don't know if I ever would've gone if I had my me either. . Yeah. Yes, yes. You understand that. And so, but yeah, I think that's the, it's that, that calling to go overseas is, is to put down every good thing in your life. Right? Yeah. And kind of start, start over somewhere else.
Misti Echols (08:44):
Yeah. Yep. I think you answered this in that answer, but would you say that, would you have defined like one particular aspect of what you gave up when you went overseas as the hardest? Or would you even stretch to call any of those things like a dream that God asked you to give up?
Jen C. (09:02):
Mm-Hmm. I think at that time, I, I don't remember. I'm not somebody that has kind of had like a five year plan of like, here's where I've netted and, and this is what I wanna accomplish. So I didn't have that in that sense. But I, I remember I was really starting to build a life here in Austin. I had moved here five years before God called me overseas, and I was starting to put down roots and build a life and kind of get my feet under me in this space. And so it was, it, it kind of the dream I guess, was this a sense of stability, a sense of security. Mm-Hmm. , um, that if I can keep putting roots down here, I can build this, this life where I, again, I have this job that I love and a church that I love, and I'm, you know, building friendships and deepening friendships.
(09:55):
And, uh, coming to Austin, I, I had the sweetest, richest sense of community that I've ever I had ever had in my life. And that was one of the scarier things to let go of. 'cause I had no idea what, how people would respond. You know, if you, if you cross the ocean, we know that relationships change. There's no way of guaranteeing how they change. They will change, they'll all change. Some of them will get deeper even across an ocean. Some of them will not. And so, uh, I think that was probably one of the bigger ones was starting over relationally somewhere else, going to a team of people that I didn't know, coworkers that I didn't know. And yeah. Kind of releasing my grasp on what I had really hard to build here. Yeah.
Misti Echols (10:43):
That was, what was it like in the midst of, I mean, do you remember if you were aware of the, you said you, you didn't grasp the full gravity, but were you aware that you were grieving loss that God had asked you? Like, were you kind of in, in, in a space of I love this, so I'm excited? Or were you kind of feeling both emotions of counting the cost, feeling the weight of the loss and excited? I think
Jen C. (11:11):
Yes. , I think I felt all kinds of things at the time. You know, we were really, as a, as a church family, we were really fanning the flames Mm-Hmm. , um, the importance of this. And so there was definitely a part of me that was thrilled to be headed that direction and to be invited into it and to feel like I had this whole church family behind me in that. Right. So there is that, that it's, it's exciting and new and different. Um, and it's interesting 'cause at times I get to share my story a lot. And there have been times where I've thought, gosh, I would love one day for the people that I left to get to share their story because you and I go. And so we gain all this newness and adventure and a language and a new home and new people and new cultural experiences and the people that we leave remain. And, and it's a tremendous loss for them without that same gain.
Misti Echols (12:15):
Yeah.
Jen C. (12:16):
And so I wanna acknowledge that too. Right? Yeah. Um, that, that for us to go. And I, I, I would love to hear your thoughts on this too, that yes, there's, there is this thing that's like, I'm really excited and I feel like God's doing something and I'm excited to be aligned with that with him and aligned with the spirit. And I feel that alignment with the spirit, which is very empowering and motivating, but also the whole time there's this kind of simmering undercurrent of Mm-Hmm. of what you're about to walk away from. Yep. And again, that reality that you're not gonna come back to it, so no matter what. And so it would, you know, I remember , my emotions were all over the place in the year ahead of that, where on any given day, I could be leaning more into the sadness and the ache Mm-Hmm. And the pain and the loss and the reality of those things. And on another day I could be completely oblivious and just excited and, you know, studying things and looking forward to things. And so I, that there were a lot of waves of emotions Mm-Hmm. that they're prepared to go for sure.
Misti Echols (13:26):
Yep. Yeah. Not to make light of a hard topic, but, um, Wilson's mom called him the day after we like, had our big sit down conversation with him. And this, like, us going overseas came out of blue skies for his parents. They had no idea. And she called him the next day and said, I, I feel like you're dying. Mm-Hmm. I feel like I'm grieving Mm-Hmm. The death of my son. And I don't know how to grasp, like the idea that you're not, but I'm losing all of the dreams maybe that I've given to you. I don't know. So yes, I think there is a, there's a significant gravity to what we've left behind and acknowledging the grief that comes with that. Well, what happened after you did what God said and did, did it just get breezy from there? Or
Jen C. (14:14):
You're laughing because you know the answer
Misti Echols (14:15):
Christine . Yeah, I do.
Jen C. (14:16):
It was,
(14:17):
It, it was, it was not all just breezy. It was a, it was a roller coaster. And I, my almost seven years overseas, uh, just high mountains and low, low, low valleys. And, um, I would say that the nothing in my life has and maybe never will, I don't know, God knows. But, uh, it been such a, a season of understanding what the refining fires of sanctification really are. What they feel like, what they're intended to do. And so part of my story is that shortly after going overseas, ended up arrested and on trial, uh, for under suspicion of terrorism initially, that eventually evolved into being on trial for different things that were all, it was just all falsified charges. And that's a long story. And, you know, that's for another day. But being on trial for those 10 months, that's where I would say that kind of a lot of my losses start to fall into this category of, um, for one thing, I had the very real loss of the, the death of my grandfather while I was on trial, which was gut wrenching. And very, he was diagnosed with cancer right before I went overseas. And so that's a part of that story of preparing to go where all of a sudden I knew he was sick and he was, he and I were very, very close, and I knew he was sick before I left, but I only found out a month before I was supposed to go. So making that decision to say goodbye, knowing that I'm gonna miss this.
Misti Echols (16:02):
Yeah.
Jen C. (16:02):
Whatever trajectory this illness takes, I'm not gonna be there for him, uh, with my family walking through that. So that was a very real known loss ahead of time. And then he ended up passing while I was on trial, so wasn't able to be there for any of that. 'cause I didn't have a passport, so I couldn't get back to the us. So there's that very real loss and grief, and then grieving that apart from my family, there's like multiple layers where all of a sudden you're not, you're grieving the loss of him, but also grieving that I don't get to grieve with other people who are grieving him. I don't get to be at the funeral. I don't get to see this process through. Meanwhile, I'm shattered. I'm, I'm scared to death. Yeah. Um, I'm in a country by, I'm not entirely by myself. That's not fair. But it, feeling alone Mm-Hmm. in certain senses without a passport, without a way to get back home, having no idea how the trial is gonna turn out and facing the very real possibility of years in prison. And so there's the loss of, of being with family who's grieving, but also their presence to be able to really grieve with me too, because they've got these other things going. Yeah.
(17:16):
And then that just gets into the loss of aspects of things you held so dearly about God and what this was all gonna be like and what the journey was gonna entail. Uh, you've got, you know, go overseas. We're so passionate and I think like it or not, have dreams about what God will do through us. Yeah. Right. I would say a caution is that we often don't consider what God's gonna do in us. Yeah. We're very passionate about what God's gonna do through us, and we're, we're not paying attention to. Yeah. What is God inviting you to, to, so that he can do something in you? And this is something I had to confront while I was there because I had all these dreams and desires of what God would do through me, and all of a sudden I slammed like a brick wall into Yeah. Hot buddy for it. All these things he actually wants to do in me, in you. And so I'm losing the hopes, desires, dreams of what I thought he was asking me to go there to do.
Misti Echols (18:18):
Mm-Hmm.
Jen C. (18:19):
And realizing, oh, this is just gut wrenchingly painful process. There's this painful process that I, he's now invited me into and not only invited me, but I'm literally captive in it right now. I couldn't get out of it if I wanted to . So I don't have a password. That is wild. So I'm on tr right? Yeah. So there's this, this imagery at the time of being bound to this process with the board that I couldn't get out of if I wanted to. So that obviously just that, uh, we could spend hours talking about the, the dark night of the soul that I had to go through largely on the other side of the trial. After 10 months, I was set free, the charges were dropped. And like I said, ended up staying in that space for a while in that community, and then went back for years to come. A lot of the dark night, the soul happened after that. When, when there was time for everything to kind of settle in, and for me to realize what I'd lost, to realize the time I'd lost Yeah. In so many ways to realize the, the things I thought about God believed about God, that I lost, um, parts of myself that I lost in the trauma of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So,
Misti Echols (19:32):
Anne, thanks for sharing that part of your story. And think it's, every time I hear it, it's not the first time I've heard it, and every time I hear something new and, and get to glorify God more through the ways that he kept you, whether that, I mean, I, I think that visual, it sounds like that was a, almost like a negative sense of like holding you captive, but he was holding you like even in the midst of it feeling like you were trapped. Yeah. Jen, you started to allude to this, but could you go back just maybe into the midst of the trial and the waiting? Do you feel like there were points in time that you could say you see now where God led you deeper into your own holiness, where he sanctified you through some of those losses?
Jen C. (20:21):
Yeah, I think, you know, I remember in the midst of it all, there was an interesting dynamic going on of that I could tell moments of absolute miraculous intervention,
(20:36):
Things that couldn't be explained apart from God. Things where he was revealing his presence and his, that he was there in the process where it's, even if I wanted to stop believing that he was there, that he cared, I couldn't have being that being in the process, I got to a real wrestling with him because it, it, it was like he was over the process. I could see him in the, in his presence there, but felt a disconnect from it being personal. Mm-Hmm. Like, he's, he's over this trial. He's over this process. He's sovereign, he's intervening. But this, there's still this like question there of like, but do you care how much this hurts? Mm-Hmm. . Like, do you care about the pain? Yeah. Can you make it stop hurting? Can you make it stop being so lonely? Can you make it stop feeling so sad?
(21:37):
Can you stop the nightmares? Can you stop me from being so afraid those things didn't stop? So I see that he's there and moving, so I have to believe he's alive, you know, and real, but personally involved and, and lured over my emotions that that was where there felt like this gap. So for me, there was this long season, like I said, of, of a dark night of the soul, right? Where I, I moved through some wild emotions of sadness and fear and anger, and I would love to call it lament. That almost sounds too holy. Um, I, I don't think it was, that wasn't that sweet. Um, not the lamenting is sweet, but the, that all shifted into this great apathy where I just was like, I don't, I don't care anymore. I don't, there was a numbness that I think was part partly my, my body and my heart and my mind just needing to shut down a little bit to get through some things.
(22:43):
But that also led to this kind of apathy and numbness with the Lord. And you know, what's interesting now is I can look back and say, if I didn't do any of that, how on earth would I actually know that Misti, to your point earlier, Jesus holds me Mm-Hmm. that my salvation holds, that there is nowhere to go, but Jesus. Right. That, how would I know any of that, except for the fact that there's these days and journal entries to prove it, where I had, I guess in some senses just like released my grip of him. I'm not holding him anymore. I I was numbed out. I wasn't holding anything. Right. Yeah. And so I have to look back and say he was holding me the whole time his, his salvation held when I was a wreck, when I wasn't believing the right things, my emotions were raging.
(23:47):
He, he held me together. He holds all things together. Right. He was holding me together. It was by no, um, I did not have the energy to do it. I didn't have the motivation to do it. I tried. I think I had the want to sometimes , I don't even know if I always did. But so many of those days were like, I just have to get through this. I just have to, like, breathing is such a task right now. Mm-Hmm. Much less like believing and believe. I think sometimes we're not great by acknowledging how hard or how much is, how much believing requires of us, or even just in our, our walk with Jesus, our, our relationship with Jesus is relational. Relationships require work. Yeah. Require effort. Right. And there are these days where I'm going and I'm like, I had nothing to give to this relationship.
(24:37):
Mm-Hmm. And now to better understand that Christ is holy, Christ has always been holy Jesus' walk on this earth. He was the walking depiction of holiness. I have to get there. Yeah. I have to go through something to achieve holiness. Right. I have to walk a journey to get where he is. And so now to look back and, and there were so many times where it's like, um, I think what's hard sometimes, I think you guys actually talked about this a little bit in the first one, where the, the definition of holiness, um, has this kind of like idea of morality in it, right? Mm-Hmm. , what does the behavior look like? Yeah. What am I doing? Or how does my holiness look on the outside? Nothing about me looked holy on the outside. Right. And so to look back at myself and see like, gosh, it was such a wreck I, and to feel like such a wreck Mm-Hmm. .
(25:33):
And, and to feel like I am in on certain days, like I'm just failing everything. Like I'm failing the lord. I'm failing myself. I'm failing this thing. I was called to whatever. As I'm so numb and, and having all these emotions, I am not holy today. Right. Or I'm not a demonstration of suffering. Well, that's another time we talk about how do we suffer? Well, yeah. This is not how you do it. I'm sure that I'm not in the, in the textbook of like, if this is what suffering well looks like, that's not my picture. Um, because it wasn't pretty, it wasn't pretty, it wasn't glamorous. It wasn't like, I just, I don't think anybody would look to, oh, she's suffering well through this. But it's that process of just being, ugh, this is hard to like crucified. Right? Yeah. Like in a sense of like, we are shedding Yeah. All of these layers of things. And there's no way to get you to holiness if we don't expose Yeah. Some of this stuff that
Misti Echols (26:32):
Yeah.
Jen C. (26:32):
This is how we get you to holiness. We expose going overseas, you kind of expedite the process. Right? Like we, we like to call it expedited sanctification.
Misti Echols (26:42):
Uhhuh . Have you heard Wilson's line about the meat grinder? No. It's terrible. That's what he always said. It was the sanctification meat grinder.
Jen C. (26:50):
Yes. Yeah. Right. , we just turn the dial up on it. Yeah. We make it move faster and
Misti Echols (26:56):
Yeah.
Jen C. (26:57):
It's like, yeah, you just turn the heat up and, and make it cook faster. But, but it really, and it, and we joke about it and goers will talk about it, but it feels like that it's just this really intense exposure of everything that is not Christlike yet. Yeah. Right. And everything you don't truly believe yet. And every part of God's character, it's you don't fully trust yet. Yeah. And so it just all kind of came together and, um, it took years, Misti. This is not like a Oh, the day we got released Mm-Hmm. every, I woke up the next morning and was like, oh, I believe now. Right. It just took years. And like I said, a lot of it actually hit harder after the fact. Mm-Hmm. when I had to actually confront the losses of that time, um, years of working through that.
(27:42):
But then seeing an understanding if I had not had these experiences, how would I ever know who Jesus is when I am desperately sad? Hmm. I have to be desperately sad to experience who Jesus is in that, how would I ever know who he is when I am terrified through the night? I have to go through that. And it doesn't mean we lift the terror. You have to be terrified and see him be faithful through that. Yeah. And then to see this process of having gone through all that, what he now allows me to know about him and share about him and, and again, to have been held through that whole thing of being, um, him continuing to demonstrate the immutability of his character. Mm-Hmm. is never changing the fact that he is not going anywhere, and the fact that I can still believe that today Yeah. Is only evidence of his spirit.
Misti Echols (28:48):
Mm-Hmm.
Jen C. (28:48):
alive in me. Yeah. Nothing in my humanity would believe that today. There's no fight. Yeah. Hated only him, only his spirit alive. Only the fact that I've been sealed by that makes me make sense today. Yep. So
Misti Echols (29:04):
Good. I love that this has been like, woven throughout your story, but do you have any maybe specific things that come to mind on the losses from holiness? So more of the side of, like, you've mentioned sanctification and we've joked about the me grinder, but what, do you have any particular things that come to mind when you think of, I laid things down for the pursuit of my holiness and the pursuit of others' holiness. But also God asked me to lay this down, or this was a part of my flesh that I had to do away with in pursuit of holiness.
Jen C. (29:44):
Yeah. This one's interesting because I think there's, that, there are things that it's, if, if I understand what you're asking, there's things that we say, we kind of have these like maybe more obvious categories of chasing kind of worldly pursuits. And then those things are not aligned with Yeah. God's, uh, best us. And we know that, and we see that in scripture. Maybe it's very clearly laid out. And so we kind of say, have to turn away from that and, you know, stop chasing those things and chase him. But I think there's, there are a lot more kind of subtle things, losses, so to speak. There's something about the reality of the Christian life where we know what's coming at some level. We know what our eternity is, we know what we're running toward. And yet there's this loss, I think, of not getting to experience it in this life. Like, we have to acknowledge that, yeah. That this life doesn't get to be what we want it to be. What we inherently know by the truth that is woven into us. Yeah. It could have been boo. And so a lot like in the every day kind of this loss of here's what I know and believe life was supposed to be and could have been. Now we don't have it until eternity. Right?
Misti Echols (31:21):
Yeah.
Jen C. (31:21):
But today I'm gonna choose to open my hands and let go of these things I'm desperately clinging to making this day be. And that, that comes into the category of allow good things, right? Yeah. Ways that we, we try to yank heaven down to earth and, and create this kind of life here. We desperately want heavenly realities here on earth. And in many ways, we, we can see in the scriptures that we do get to do that. Right. We pray for that even Lord's prayer. But there is, there is this like thing where it's just going to fall short. And so there's a loss for us in, um, the daily acknowledgement of, I know it could be, it's not gonna get all the way there, but I'm gonna keep running toward that, that thing at the end. Anyway,
Misti Echols (32:16):
I think you're sitting right in the middle of, of the word I would say is the, not yet, like we're, but I love what you said specifically about the, we're grieving what we like as believers, that we have this lens of we are anticipating with hope, the not yet, but we're anticipating that because we're grieving, like it's woven within us that we're grieving what never could be, but what should have been.
Jen C. (32:39):
Yeah.
Misti Echols (32:40):
That was beautiful. I loved that. Where, where does your mind, like where in scripture does your mind go in this? What what do, what do you clinging to? Hmm. That's a really good question, because part of your answer just now was like genesis to Revelation. You just told, you just laid the story of in the very beginning, we lost and made choices. We sinned as human beings do. So now we live for the whole rest of the book until we get to see what it will be at the end.
Jen C. (33:19):
The first thing that came to mind when you said that, and it's been true for the past decade of my life, that I, the, the surest thing that I tend to go to scripturally, honestly, is Peter saying, where would I go? Right? That I've, I've, we've been around the world, . Yeah. We have had so many experiences. We've seen so many cultures. We've gotten to live really amazing, uh, seasons of life. And yet there's still nothing else. There's nothing else that's as worth chasing. There's nowhere else to go. There's nowhere in the world we've been around . Yeah. There's nowhere in the world that is going to be as satisfying, even with all the cost, right? Mm-Hmm. , I can't imagine we're all gonna suffer. Everybody's gonna suffer. Believe it or not, we get to suffer for something. And so I can't imagine going to something else as my hope
Misti Echols (34:24):
Mm-Hmm.
Jen C. (34:25):
Suffering in any form or fashion for it. And then finding out that it, that it, it doesn't hold together on the other side. Whereas when we suffer in these ways, when we are, what the process of, um, God leading us into suffering, or things being taken from us, or our own suffering, that comes from our journey of, you know, walking with sin, dying to the flesh, things like that. All of those things, the only thing that makes that worth it is, is knowing that we have this hope in Christ to look forward to. There's nowhere else to go that makes any of that matter. And, um, that is my go-to in every emotion I have. Mm-Hmm. the days when I, you know, part of the loss. I think for people who go through great, uh, whether it's trauma, whether it's grief, whether it's the loss of something or someone that's really profound, whatever it is, those things have lasting effect.
(35:27):
Right. There's scars. We don't Yeah. We don't one day wake up and none of that has impacted us. Right. We, that's part of what happens. We lose parts of ourselves in that loss. Some of that is the good necessary sanctifying loss of your flesh. Mm-Hmm. . Some of it's parts of ourselves we probably didn't wanna lose. There are days, Misti, I'm not as joyful as I used to be. Yeah. I'm not as happy. Maybe we'll put it that way. I'm not as happy as I used to be. I'm not as fun. Sometimes , this is a reality. Yeah. Um, you know, and sometimes that feels like a little bit of a cost, but it, we, so we, we walk through life continuing. We've absorbed those losses and we continue to reflect them a little bit. And so on those days when I'm sad, when I'm mad, when I'm not as fun as I wanna be, or funny as I wanna be or whatever, and the fear, and on the joyful days, I go, where else is there to go? There is nowhere else. There's nothing else that's gonna make this worth it. So good.
Misti Echols (36:25):
It's great. I love it. Okay, Jen, I'm curious. In Hebrews 12, seven, it says, it is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons for what son is there, whom his father does not discipline. If you are left without discipline in which all have participated, then you are illeg legitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them, shall we not much more be subject to the father of Spirit and live? Um, I'm curious, when you hear this, could you speak to maybe the woman who is in a season of loss, whether it be as we've talked about death or, you know, involuntary things, or it be a season of I've chosen to give things up for the sake of Christ and for his name to be known, and I'm struggling to believe that I'm not being punished. Could you speak to that?
Jen C. (37:25):
This so speaks to the importance and not just importance, like how critical it is for us to have a right theology of suffering and understanding of how suffering is uniquely woven into the Christian story. Every again, every culture, every religion, every whatever. We all have suffering. Mm-Hmm. . But there's a uniqueness to how it's used in the Christian story and how it's, how it is used by the father. Mm-Hmm.
(38:04):
For us, I think we, you know, as a, as a church, we had an outstanding sermon series on this and that difference between discipline and punishment. And I think part of it is, do we what, what meaning do we even ascribe to the word discipline? Mm-Hmm. discipline sounds harsh to us, right? Yeah. Discipline doesn't, it's not a warm fuzzy word for most people. And yet, uh, understanding God's heart behind that and what this is all leading to, it's kind of kinda what I was saying earlier, that there's, it's never without purpose. One of the things I do wanna say is that for me, I don't remember if I ever felt punished necessarily. So I wanna be careful because I, I, I wanna honor that we all will have, carry different narratives with us Yeah. Into our suffering. Right. And those are all based on our experiences, our memories, all that kind of stuff.
(39:05):
And so we have unique narratives that we go into suffering with. So I wanna dignify the, the those who have, who do hold that question and ask that question. Yeah. By being honest, that I'm not sure I asked it in that way. Yeah. What I do remember very much at one point was feeling like a pawn on God's chess board. Yeah. That he had this great purpose that was for him, for his kingdom, for his glory. And I just become something that can be moved around, uh, to accomplish that in. And that's all it is. I'm a plastic con. No heart, no, yeah. Pain, no emotion. Right. That's how it started to feel. And I think I may even have that in one of my journals. That, that am I just to be used in a sense, you should be, uh, for something that you are trying to accomplish.
(40:00):
Again, that's, that that slippery slope of what we think God is gonna do through us, rather Yeah. Inviting what God is doing in us. Yeah. And expect being expectant for what he is doing in us. Because if I don't understand that he's invited me on this journey as much to do something in me, that my sanctification is as meaningful to him as someone else's salvation. That's right. Then I'm gonna totally miss, oh, this thing. Of course, I'm not a pawn. This is a part of this journey that he was calling me into. Right. So understanding that this all is accomplishing something together. Mm-Hmm. is not that what he's doing in, in, in somebody else, in me, in my life, whatever. These things aren't in opposition to each other. They're all coming together to cultivate something in me. Uh, that is gonna be really good. Yeah.
(41:00):
At the other side, or maybe not even on the other side in the process. It's good too. It doesn't feel good. Yeah. But he's cultivating something in me, right. That is, that is for my good. Yep. Also for his glory. Those things aren't exclusive. What is for my good is for his glory. Right. Those things come together. And so getting to a place, which again, took a very long time of understanding that, oh man, his heart is so for me, and it's been for me all along. And I wanna say that, you know, a lot of the stories I'm telling are, are things that happened 10 years ago. I mean, I could give you stories of things that happened week. Sure. Yeah. But these, these are more of a, they just give us a more intense, uh, picture of it. But these are things that happened a decade ago.
(41:49):
I now, and, and I, I don't pretend to know the end of any of anybody suffering, and we can never make promises about that. Yeah. We don't know. Only, you know, we only the Lord knows. We don't know what the end will be. What I can say is that everything he led me through then is now contributing to what I do now and what my life now and what I find joy in now, and what my purpose is now, and things that I've finally 10 years later gotten in a place where I think Elizabeth Elliot said some version of, there's, you'll realize you enter a new stage of healing when you get to that place. 'cause you'll, you'll go through, you'll go through seasons of sanctification, loss, grief, whatever. And, and there'll be a season of time where you say, I never want that to happen again.
(42:41):
But I, I can see that God's good word. Yeah. She'll say, there's another stage where you kind of say, if it all had to happen again to get me here, I'd do it. I can say now that I'm, I'm in that space Yeah. Where now where I see, oh, this, this is where it was all getting me with the Lord. Yeah. Um, the purpose that he's, he's now inviting me into it. This stage of life. It, it all had to happen to get there. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Again, I'm not prescribing that on anybody else's story, but I think when we get to those spaces, and I, I now have that as a marker in my Mm-Hmm. Ty, because I I'm, I will suffer again. Yeah. Suffering not over. I didn't, I didn't just like cross the finish line of my psych application.
Misti Echols (43:31):
Yeah.
Jen C. (43:32):
And now I'm gonna spend the, you know, the second half of my life, you know, enjoying all the benefits.
(43:36):
Suffering is going to come again. We're gonna do this again. Yeah. This will happen again. Yeah. But now I have this marker to say, oh, I, I, I will never experience it that way again. Because now I've walked through that and I've gotten to this place. And so I will always know that he was faithful through that 10 years. Yep. I'll always know that I didn't know that the first time around. Sure. Right. So I had, it had to be tested. Yeah. And proven. Yep. Now I have that to look back on. Now it's an ebenezer now, now it's a stone of remembrance. I'll always go back and look at that and say, I will, suffering that comes ahead will be different. And that's where that I feel like I can feel confident in the sanctifying work that the spirit started and is working to completion. Yeah. Yep. Because I can see, okay, we're gonna reenter that one day, but it's gonna be different. This,
Misti Echols (44:30):
Yeah. I love what you said of how you don't wanna prescribe it to anyone else's story, but that is a way that God has said, I am and was good to you in the midst of your suffering. I also just have to like, throw the rest of this. I, I read that part of Hebrews, um, and I think hearing the rest of that passage is, you just said it beautifully in story form, but it says, for they disciplined us. This is about talking about your, your earthly fathers who disciplined you for they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them. But he disciplines us for our good that we may share his holiness for the moment. All discipline seems painful rather than pleasant. But later it yields, like you just said, the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. So now you're, you're in a season where you say, yes, I know suffering's coming from me. Again, I know more loss will come, but in this moment, I have ebenezer, I have stones of remembrance to say, I get to sit in the, the peaceful fruit of righteousness knowing that you've been through that.
Jen C. (45:39):
Yeah.
Misti Echols (45:40):
Praise God for the work he's done in that.
Jen C. (45:42):
Yeah. Yeah. And it, it, um, I, and I also, I feel compelled to say that doesn't mean I'm gonna suffer prettier the next time, . I'm still not gonna be a good picture of suffering. Well, right. . So that's not what we're declaring. It'd be just that again, there's, there are things that he, that are, have been tested Mm-Hmm. and proven true. And, uh, and so there's a, I I believe, I pray, I pray by God alone that yes, I will be able to clinging to those things that I question before.
Misti Echols (46:16):
Yeah.
Jen C. (46:17):
Because he's been too faithful at this point not to. Good.
Misti Echols (46:20):
I love that. So many of the stories you've shared have been ways that you have seen how loss has led you into deeper relationship with Christ. Is there something that you would say to the woman listening that is fighting the lie of believing that this loss is leading her, this loss, meaning whatever loss she might be wrestling through is leading her away from Christ?
Jen C. (46:42):
Hmm. Yeah. These are, these are kind of things that are almost hard to answer in this setting, because the uniqueness of circumstances that get each person to that point, I wanna recognize how complex those things can be and how, again, nuanced and tender. And I wish that any of us could just sit and hear those individual stories and speak to it that way. Right? Yeah. That there's different reasons we all get there. Mm-Hmm. That, that requires a different response. But overall, the, I don't even know if this is gonna be the most theologically sound response, , there is freedom. Let's risk it. .
(47:28):
What I know is what I said before, that the things, the suffering I've been through, and my response to it was to put me at a distance from Christ Right. To distance myself Hmm. From Christ. Yeah. To distance myself from a lot of things because I was distancing myself from my pain. That's what it really was. Yeah. I was in pain. I had painful emotions toward the Lord that I didn't know what to do with, and I didn't feel like he was speaking to or answering me in. And so I wanted to distance myself from the pain. And yet he was holding me, can't get very far. Right. The whole time his eyes were on me. He was in the room with me. He was hearing me, he was sitting next to me while I raged in silence. He was there. He never, ever left.
(48:25):
I'm so sure of that now. I'm so sure of that. And so I never had to keep holding him. Right. That, that. Now, I think if I were to go through that again, my prayer for myself would be, Jesus, I know you're holding me, and so let me just rest into that. Uh, help me stop fighting so hard because I'm wearing myself out desperately trying to grab hold of you in ways that aren't really working anyway. And then I'm frustrating myself and I'm getting caught in, in cycles of just frustration with you and whatever. I just got myself so worked up and, and then again, it becomes painful so you distance. Right. And I think if I could have known back then how to just daily tell myself over, maybe minute by minute, not even daily, but he's never left the room. He's right here and he's not going anywhere.
(49:29):
And he, he delights to be near you in your pain. He's not afraid of it. I think that, you know, humans don't delight to be near pain. Somehow he does. His delight remains to be near us When pain to be near us, when we're apathetic to be near us, when we have these emotions that feel kind of repulsive to us, he delights to be right there. And so you, for, for a woman who's so afraid that the losses are leading her away from Christ, I just wanna offer some hope that you can't get very far. If you're in him, there's love. Nothing so good separate you, nothing, nothing can separate you from his love. Yep. At times, I wish the scripture said, including your own emotions, including your own doubt, including like, that's the gospel, right? Like including your own attempt. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing is going to separate you. You're okay. You're okay. Right. And so just rest and know that you are in his love, that his gospel has completely taken care of it. It's finished. Right? Yeah. And so, just whatever you need to do, one moment at a time to get through this, know that he's holding you
Misti Echols (50:44):
And as you believe that
Jen C. (50:47):
You'll respond. Currently,
Misti Echols (50:48):
He was saying, I'm held so many times, reminds me of, there's a Pat Barrett song. It is that simple. He literally sings that. The entire song says, I'm held, I'm held, I'm held by the lover of my soul. And there's like little snippets of lines there, but it's, I looked up the lyrics while we're sitting here because I was like, is it really that simple that he just repeats that over and over and over again? I'm held by the one who won't let go. I love that God's told that story to you over and over again through your suffering. Mm-Hmm. Jen, I'm really thankful for the ways you've been so v vulnerable today. I kinda wanted to wrap us up with this quote that I found from Paul David Tripp. Um, I think he complexly and beautifully lays out for us the ways in which God's holiness can bring us comfort.
(51:36):
He says, in a world that seems so out of control, that seems so evil or wrong, seems to be rewarded. And right often seems to be punished. It's vital to remember the holiness of God. Every situation, location, or relationship that you have been in, are now in and will be in, is under the careful sovereignty of the one who is completely holy. At street level. It often won't seem this way, but your Lord is ruling. What he does is always right. What he says is always true. What he promises he will always deliver. You have to preach this message to yourself over and over again. Evil is not in control. Injustice does not rule. Corruption is not king. Satan will not have victory. God is and will always be worthy of your trust. For this one reason, he is holy with holy power. He will defeat every evil thing that has made our lives sad and difficult and deliver us forever to a world free of all that is wrong. I think that gives us, he words it so beautifully that we have so much hope, as we talked about in all of the not yet as we wait, I think my last question for you would be, how has your hope increased through loss?
Jen C. (53:00):
I think when they have this, I wanna say like severe mercy, you know, which a lot of us are familiar with, that idea of having things taken or refined or stolen sometimes, or things we have to die to. There's this tremendous mercy of God that again, we have to, we have to know, we have to know that there isn't now an absence of something when those things are gone right there. I mean, there is, there's an absence, but it's not like things get taken, taken, taken into some, and then there's just some void. That there is this God in Christ who wants to fill that space. Uh, there's, there, there's a way that he wants to use all of that to set our eyes toward an eternity where all the beautiful and good, um, will be restored and permanent. There's a way of, one of the, the things I've been most captivated by in the character of God, and I mentioned it earlier, is that his immutability, the fact that he doesn't change.
(54:23):
Yeah. Right. And the only way we could have any, our, our call as believers is to be always changing. That's what he tells us. You are being transformed every day. We have to always be changing. And part of that changing requires, there's things you're losing, there's things you're gaining. There's this constant transforming process. And the only way we could ever feel steady in that ever changing reality of ourselves, of people, the believers around us, is to know that there is this unchanging thing that is the backdrop for it. Right. So every loss gives just kind of this space to look toward this thing that you're never gonna lose. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and that's never going to change. And that will be true for all of eternity. And it does serve to, and again, this can be a really hard reality for people who are right in the midst of great loss.
(55:17):
So I, I wanna acknowledge that, that this is a tender thing to say, but there is a way that it serves to set our hope toward heaven. Mm-Hmm. . Right. When I think about, um, the loss of my grandfather and how much he's missed of my life in the past 10 years Yeah. And how much I've missed having him living a lack of the past 10 years, does it actually just completely thrill and excite me for heaven when, when we start a new life over together Yeah. And live that for all eternity. 100%. Yeah. And that there's all these beautiful things about heaven and the kingdom of God, the eternal kingdom of God that we're gonna experience that it's, it's almost like it just kind of continues to loosen our grip. Mm-Hmm. the world, you know, as things are removed to say, okay, I just can't wait to get there.
(56:09):
And I, and I think Jesus wants that for us. I I think he wants us to live in such a way to say, yeah. Can't wait to get there. Yeah. And I, and I'll be faithful as, as he calls me to now in the process for as many days as he's ordained, that I have here on this earth. But if I live with this, I can't wait to get their mentality, then how will that impact how I live here? Yeah. So I think it always gives us an opportunity to, to look toward a time and a space or I guess what's outside of time and space, and eternal, where it's all restored and renewed and new. Right. Things we've never experienced that we're gonna get handed, which is really
Misti Echols (56:51):
Exciting. So exciting.
Jen C. (56:53):
Yep.
Misti Echols (56:55):
I love that. That was a, a beautiful way to summarize the hope that we get to have. And I love the way that he taught you. I think the two things I took away were his immutability, like you said, and the way that he just held you, which is a part of his immutability. Like he never changed in the fact that he held you through that intense season of suffering. And he's still holding you now.
Jen C. (57:20):
Yeah.
Misti Echols (57:21):
He's a good dad. Um, well, I'm, like I said, also thankful that we get to hope in the world that God is going to deliver us to. I love that we get to sit in the not yet with some answers of what it will be like because it was just kind of him to give us those pictures and those snippets of what's to come in our new life. And I can't wait to see it with unveiled eyes. Well, friends, thanks for listening today. Um, I hope this conversation with Jen blessed you. Um, I hope it encourages you as you continue to pursue Christ amidst loss. Ian, I hope you'll keep tuning in because you really won't want to miss next episode where Alison Mezger will be leading us through a conversation on holiness and wholeness.