This episode, featuring the entire Women's Ministry staff team, is the first in a short series exploring different facets of our understanding and pursuit of holiness.
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women's Ministry at The Austin Stone. This year, we're focusing on the theme of holiness. This episode, featuring the entire Women's Ministry staff team, is the first in a short series exploring different facets of our understanding and pursuit of holiness.
A life united with Jesus is a life in pursuit of holiness. At first, this may not sound like good news - to be set apart and morally pure. Indeed, our culture and, likely, our flesh warn us against such restrictions. We've all experienced the rebellion-producing effects of the law, even if only in our hearts. We are tempted to believe that we are our best and most authentic selves when we define our path and when we bestow our own identity. But we are fickle - transient in our affections, wavering in our convictions - and the weight of creating our happiness is crushing. So what if the call to a holy life offered freedom, peace, beauty, wholeness, and joy? What if we are most ourselves when we shed the shackles of sin and orient everything we have towards looking and loving like Jesus, who looked and loved like His Father? Because a holy God has created us, saved by a sinless Savior, and invited into safety, fellowship, and purpose - when our flesh dies, we live. May we be women who trust Him to be Himself, who run out of darkness into His light, and who beckon others to follow with our lives.
We hope you'll join us for future episodes exploring various aspects of our understanding and pursuit of holiness!
Speaker 1 (00:00:03):
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Women's Cast. I'm Allison Mezger. I'm here with the entire women's team today. Feels like it's been a long time coming, and we are here with you to share something that's honestly been stirring in us for quite some time. Now, here's a little bit of backstory for today's conversation. As you may or may not know, in the spring of 2023, the Spirit led the women's ministry staff team to the theme of joy for the 2324 school year. At the same time, our elders were defining Vision 2030 for our church, and using the language of being joyfully devoted disciples, it was so clear to us that the spirit had been leading us in alignment and unity, as he so often does. So throughout this last year, the focus on joy within our ministry alongside you all sparked so many important conversations and prayers, steps of obedience and faithfulness.
(00:00:57):
We have no doubt that the intentional focus on joy produced the fruit of joy in us. And in so many of you that we've talked to, this fruit didn't come from denying the complexity of joy as both a gift of the spirit, but also something we pursue. It came from asking a lot of hard questions about the very nature of joy and our experience of it. But one question in particular has lingered in our minds that warrants further consideration, especially in light of our cultural context. And it's, this is the pursuit of joy at odds with the pursuit of holiness. Scripture makes it very clear that a life united with Jesus is a life in pursuit of holiness. But I'll be the first to admit that the idea of being set apart, of being morally pure can sometimes sound more burdensome, more like a restriction than a gift.
(00:01:51):
And certainly our culture and our flesh tells us that anything that restricts us is not good for us. So we can be tempted to believe that we are our best and truest selves when we define our own paths, when we bestow our own identity and when there are no boundaries around either. But as humans, we're fickle. We're transient in our affections, we're wavering in our convictions. So even though it can easily seem like holiness is in direct opposition to joy, the reality is that the weight of creating our own paths, our own identities, and ultimately our own happiness is crushing. So the question we're left with is this, what if the call to a life of holiness was actually an offer of freedom, peace, beauty, wholeness, and joy? What if we are most ourselves when we shed the shackles of sin and orient everything we have towards looking and loving like Jesus, who looked and loved like his Father?
(00:02:53):
We say we've been created by a holy God, saved by a sinless savior and invited into safety and fellowship and purpose. So what if we trusted his truth that when our flesh dies, we live? What if the pursuit of joy was not only not at odds with holiness, but actually the best motivation to pursue it? So that's what we're kicking off today, A year of a lot of questions and talking honestly about holiness so we can passionately pursue holiness. In some ways, it's a continuation of our theme of joy. Our prayer is that we will be women who trust God to be himself, women who run out of darkness into his light, and who beckon others to follow him because of our lives. We are desperate for his help in all of this. And we hope these conversations encourage and challenge you in the same pursuit. In future episodes, we'll deepen our understanding of holiness by looking at holiness alongside other aspects of our faith, like community loss, spiritual gifts, repentance, et cetera. But for today, we're just gonna lay the groundwork and we've got the whole team here to do it. Um, I'm dying for everybody to jump in. So if you guys will say hello, give us your name and what congregation you serve at.
Speaker 2 (00:04:12):
Hi, I am Christine from Northwest. Hi, I'm Juliet St. John.
Speaker 3 (00:04:16):
I'm Misty at St. John. Hey, this is Kate from downtown, and this is Chrissy from West.
Speaker 1 (00:04:22):
And quick pause, Chrissy, your full name and a little bit more, because this is not only your first time on the podcast, but like your second week on the job. Woo.
Speaker 3 (00:04:31):
Hello. Yes, this is Chrissy Kennedy, and if I haven't met you, I look forward to it. But like Allison said, I've been at West for about seven, eight years on staff, and now two weeks in the women's role. Yay.
Speaker 1 (00:04:47):
Well, we are so glad to have you on the team and in this role serving the women at West, it's been truly an answer to prayer of many prayers. So we're really glad you're here.
Speaker 3 (00:04:57):
Awesome. Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:04:58):
Yeah. All right. We'll continue around the circle.
Speaker 3 (00:05:00):
This is Annette up at North
Speaker 4 (00:05:03):
Persia from South .
Speaker 1 (00:05:06):
Perfect. Okay, well, we're gonna jump straight in, but we're gonna get there in a little bit of a roundabout way before we start talking about holiness, because we've already kind of made this connection a little bit. When you think back on the last year and the amount of conversations we had about joy, what is a personal takeaway from you?
Speaker 2 (00:05:26):
Mine is that joy is a person. I, I think I often think of it as an emotion or an experience, but joy is a person. And so I can pursue Jesus and find that he's the source of joy. Mm-Hmm. . That's what I'm looking for. I know where to go. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:05:42):
.
Speaker 4 (00:05:42):
Mm-Hmm. . I think there's a particular beauty in as it being a person, also a fruit of the spirit. And that means it's, I, I really think it was Allison who said it, that it's something God gives us, not something we can work up. Mm-Hmm. . And so that, that frees me from the endeavor of trying to earn my joy myself, but truly to, to receive from Jesus.
Speaker 5 (00:06:04):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 6 (00:06:04):
, I think it taught me and just revealed to me how often, how my default mode is to have my joy defined by my circumstance and revealed the importance that's gonna happen naturally, at least for me. And so to, I have to continually exercise the muscle to say my joy is not dependent on my circumstances. Is it dependent on the person and the presence of the person of Jesus. And so I have to flex the muscle to remind myself that that never changes. Regardless my circumstance changes, his presence and my circumstance never does. And I have to work really hard to remind myself of that. Mm-Hmm. ,
Speaker 7 (00:06:41):
That's good. I think for me, I mean, definitely the joy is found in the person of Jesus Christ was, is key. But also my understanding that because Jesus is at a fixed point right now in the presence of the Father, my joy has an anchor in the throne room of the Father. We have the Holy Spirit that's bringing it out into us. And we definitely have radiating beams of joy that are coming down to us in different aspects. But my joy is in a fixed place. And I don't know about any of y'all, but just the stability of that is very appealing to me. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:07:26):
I think, yeah. Y'all kind of mentioned it maybe in some different words, but I, I think something that came to the surface for me that maybe wasn't new, but felt like through women's retreat and Bible studies and other environments where we were talking about this theme, it felt like I kept hearing just the, the topic of suffering. Mm-Hmm. in the ways that what does , what does it mean to have joy as a Christ follower as it relates to circumstances that are difficult, like Julie was talking about, and feeling like what kind of rose to the surface was that discovering our, our true, you know, supernatural eternal definition of joy. Not an earthly definition of joy, is kind of cultivated through the fire of suffering. That to really understand what it means as a Christ follower to have joy, is to be abiding in Christ in such a way that no matter what storm might come, and real grief and real sadness and real loss, Christians are gonna experience those kind of things.
(00:08:32):
Um, but what does it mean to have joy? Because it is secure, like Annette was saying. And, and I think I've felt that in my own life through different seasons. But I think spending a year in the theme of joy and each of us, even on this team experiencing our own versions of suffering throughout the year, and as we talked about it, it just felt like that was one of my takeaways, was that joy has to be found in Christ, um, and that there is a intimacy with Christ to be had. And when I say intimacy, I really like a joy, therefore a joy to be had with Christ, because we're joining with him in his sufferings, the text where it's like we know him and the power of his resurrection, and we know him through the, the, through his suffering too. You know, that there's more to be had of Christ when we walk through suffering. And that that's part of our joy. So that's some of what was sticking out to me. Mm-Hmm. ,
Speaker 1 (00:09:25):
I know we didn't start last year out when we started talking about joy, thinking about holiness. We've ended the year with some of those conversations, which is what has led us to this year's theme. But I'm curious why we don't typically think about joy and holiness together. Why do you guys think that is? Like, are there certain barriers to our understanding of those two things being connected that you can think of?
Speaker 7 (00:09:50):
Holiness is so often framed, like denying yourself something. Mm-Hmm. . And that doesn't seem to mesh with joy.
Speaker 1 (00:09:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (00:10:00):
Well, and I think it goes back to what Christine said is that joy is a person. And I think we often don't naturally default to joy being a person. And if, and I think how, at least in my mind I get from joy to holiness, is if joy is a person and that person is God, and God is holy, and then to be in his presence, Mm-Hmm. Requires the pursuit of holiness.
Speaker 1 (00:10:23):
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. That's good. Julie. I,
Speaker 4 (00:10:25):
I think for me, ultimately it's my affections, my affections in my heart, that response to the context around me, a heart continually happy in Jesus. I thought about this earlier. This isn't just off the cuff, but the heart that is con, continually happy in Jesus has been conditioned by abiding in him. And so when I'm most prone to forget holiness, it's because I've tried to find joy without holiness and end up missing both.
Speaker 5 (00:10:56):
Well said.
Speaker 2 (00:10:57):
I think my connotation, I think of holiness and joy in colors. So holiness is like black and white and gray. Well,
Speaker 5 (00:11:06):
No surprise. Are we surprised at all? I
Speaker 2 (00:11:08):
Dunno. 'cause you love
Speaker 5 (00:11:09):
Your bright colors, .
Speaker 1 (00:11:11):
It's true.
Speaker 5 (00:11:12):
I know. I just,
Speaker 2 (00:11:13):
But joy is like yellow and orange and turquoise. It's like really vibrant and so pink and pink purple for women's. But, um, I think that joy feels like, it feels like something that's hard to grasp onto. It feels, like I said earlier, sometimes think of it more in emotion or something like that. But holiness, I think I often think of it in terms of it's in my control. Like I have to do certain things rather than it being something that the Lord directs. And, and so really holiness and joy are similar in the fact that they are something given to a spy God. It, he is joy, he is holiness. And he gifts us with those things. They really go hand in hand. And yes, we have a pursuit, as we talked about joy, we pursue it. But I think I often think of it more as this, this is something, holiness is something I have to do. Yeah. I have to perform. I'm being evaluated. I have to do it. Right. And, and so it becomes this, it has a bad connotation in my mind when in fact it is more like the, you know, bright colored Mm-Hmm. , it's beautiful. That's who God is. He's beautiful. The most holy wheel ever be is in heaven with him, where there's so much joy and so,
Speaker 7 (00:12:33):
And so many colors
Speaker 2 (00:12:34):
Together and so many colors around the throne. Mm-Hmm. . So I just, the main point is I think it often it is something up to me. And so that feels very heavy. Mm-Hmm. and, and hard. And, and really, in fact, it's, it's not up to me. Mm-Hmm. I pursue it, but it's something that God directs in gifts.
Speaker 1 (00:12:56):
Yeah. Hearing you say that makes me think that one of the things that we kind of got, we get wrong easily, and we were trying to kind of like unwind when we started talking about joy was that it, it, it is a gift, but it is something we pursue. And so how do those two things coexist? And it does feel like that same paradigm kind of applies to holiness. But we, I know for me, I very much easily get stuck in the, it's just the performative. Like I'm supposed to now like be holy because God is holy. Yeah. And so then it feels more of the do this be this way and forget about the, the work that he does on our behalf. Like in that initial setting us apart, which is a part of holiness. And there there is this pursuit of it just like, there is a pursuit of joy through pursuing Jesus. But it's easy to think about joy as something you chase. Like think of all the, even just, you know, outside of the church, the, like, choose joy kind of bumper sticker feel like joy is something you go after. But holiness is something I'm supposed to be Mm-Hmm. . And so those feel very, it
Speaker 2 (00:14:01):
Feels different. It feels disengaged from God. Yeah. It feel in, in my connotation and why I don't often love talking abouts or like the word is 'cause it feels disengaged from God. It's all about me and what I'm doing. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . That's act, that's not the right way to think of it, but,
Speaker 1 (00:14:16):
Mm-Hmm. , that's what first comes to mind. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 7 (00:14:20):
Another thing that I think about is that so often when we think about holiness, we think about solemnity reverence. Mm-Hmm. . Awe. That's, you know, like we're pausing and we're, you know, there in the holiness of God, RC Strolls talks about how he went into this chapel area alone at night and the stillness, and that was what holiness felt like. And joy feels like exuberance. Mm-Hmm. You know, this unleashing, this, letting go. Those two things don't seem to mesh. But you know, kind of Christine, what you were talking about, how the throne room of God, that is the essence of holiness. There are so much activity that's going on, so much singing, so much movement that's going on. And so, but we, we don't think about that. We disconnect from that partially because I think we have a hard time imagining what that's gonna look like.
Speaker 5 (00:15:18):
True.
Speaker 6 (00:15:19):
My definition of holiness defaults to an understanding that I don't think that, I don't think holiness actually is, and it's been so helpful. I don't know who said it or where it came from, to think about holiness as the pursuit of flourishing. And so it's not just a taking off what is bad, but it's a living into the way that God created us to live and to be it like in his likeness. Mm-Hmm. . And so I think there's just a basic misunderstanding that I can default to of like, what even is holiness. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 5 (00:15:48):
. I, I think that's one of the reasons why it feels really disconnected from joy is because the process you just talked about, Julie is a process. Mm-Hmm. . It's, it's long, it's enduring. It requires discipline. It requires community and encouragement. It requires vulnerability and our culture. And me too, I mo I instant gratification baby. Like, what does it feel like today? . Mm-Hmm. . I want it today. Right. And holiness is this ongoing work of Mm-Hmm. putting off and putting on and learning to love those things and learning to value them and learning to have like the eternal perspective of like, yeah. Like the suffering might be true today, but like, there's a day coming when there's no more tears, no more, you know, and it's, we lack, I lack a long view of my joy. That's good. Great. Yeah. My joy has been redefined by a world, uh, earthly understanding of it needs to be right now.
(00:16:49):
And it needs to be emotional and it needs to be, and you feel good. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . That's joy. And that's, even as I say that, even as those words came mouth, I'm a man, it's a cheap definition of joy. Mm-Hmm. It's a, that's a fleeting in the moment kind of joy. That's not a lasting joy. Mm-Hmm. . But I, but I think I can often disconnect the two because I'm, I'm motivated and I'm thinking by the quick hit of endorphin of joy and holiness, man, that's, it's, it's a journey. It's a, it's a long obedience in the same direction. Right?
Speaker 1 (00:17:22):
Mm-Hmm. . Yep. As we try to get to kind of a, a working biblical definition of joy, it's good to kind of go through this process of like, what's just, what pops in our heads naturally? Like what kind of assumptions are we bringing to the table that we will need scripture to, to tear down or re redefine for us? The other part of that is, is the inputs that we're all taking in, um, whether we in the moment recognize them or not from culture. Right. So things stand out about what you think our day-to-day culture. That could be culture within the church even, but also out outside of the church. What do you think some of those things are and how do those things, those different inputs or assumptions impact you?
Speaker 3 (00:18:04):
Holiness can feel like perfection. Like it can feel so unattainable and so black and white, like we talked before, it can feel ethereal. It can feel so far beyond ourselves. And so when I think about attaining perfection, that is what instantly my flesh is like, I can't do that. I can't, I just can't. I'm not even gonna try, I can't do that. Mm-Hmm. . Or if we're talking to somebody else about holiness, it's the assumption that you could do that on your own. And so it feels so far beyond something that we are actually capable of. It can feel overwhelming. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and so I think that's like this, it fe it just going back to ethereal, it just feels up here up high. Yeah. And just not something, it feels very like it's god's, you know, it feels like set apart.
Speaker 2 (00:18:58):
And I think to piggyback on that cury, I think because it's so unattainable, we try to break it down into rules and into parameters and barriers and all these like, human ways of living. And that's what I think about when I think about Mm-Hmm. The legalism. Mm-Hmm. . That's kind of why I don't like to talk about. 'cause I grew up in a very legalistic, with a legalistic understanding of holiness. And so I, I think we take the ethereal and we make it into these things. If I can do all these things and I'll know I'm holy Mm-Hmm. . And, and we really take away from the beauty of holiness or really the, the true nature of holiness when we do that. Well,
Speaker 8 (00:19:43):
It is what sets it sets God apart from us. Like, that is the thing that makes him different. And so it makes sense that it would be, we want it, we can't get it. And we try to make it into what we can get. Like we can achieve, we can try to strive, but we will never get holiness without the holy one. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 7 (00:20:04):
. Yeah. And I think our culture understands that holiness is unattainable because I think our culture thinks that of hypocrisy when they think of holiness, because those list of dos and don'ts actually don't fix our holiness problem. And our culture knows it. They see it and, and they call us out on it. Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 5 (00:20:26):
Yeah. It, it feels like to me, like we've done more harm when we take anything of God and a concept, a word, a definition. And we, we try to explain it in human terms, but we remove, remove Jesus from it. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And yeah, it feels like we start engaging in this topic with culture and it's abrasive. It's like tune you out immediately 'cause of everything you just said in that. But that makes me like, think and feel personally kind of like reflective and convicted and like, when we talk about holiness, uh, as a church and Christian community, when we're out in the world engaging with community and, and men and women in our city, are we talking about holiness apart from Christ? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Like have we separated it? Obviously our culture has like a long time ago because, you know, like it's become a word that's kind of about achievement.
(00:21:24):
It's about perfection. Mm-Hmm. It's about these, this list of do's and don's. And I'm like, well man, where in the world do we leave Jesus? Yeah. Like why? In all of the things we've just described, we've said, we're like, we can't have it apart from him, but like obviously that hasn't translated Mm-Hmm. , , you know, into like actual behavior into the practice of holiness. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . So Yeah. It's just, it's like, that's one of the things I think I run into when you think about talking about this in culture, is that well there's, there is a disconnect of understanding. Mm-Hmm. That we're not actually saying perfection ourself. We're not actually saying list of do's and don'ts, but we are saying, conforming my life to a person. Mm-Hmm. who, because of his finished work is gonna do the work in me. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:22:06):
. Yeah. And I think the other challenge with culture too is that we are stating that then there's truth, there is ultimate authority. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And there's an ultimate standard. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and culture doesn't like the fact that we're saying there is an actual truth. Absolutely. Yeah. And so I think that's the other thing that we, that can be really abrasive or hard to talk about is because we have the standard of truth and they may not have that same standard. And so when we talk about holiness, it can be we're we're just hitting moving targets.
Speaker 1 (00:22:38):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I think part of our experience as believers is even the idea, even like the topic makes us feel very other, which is interesting 'cause that's really part of you and the definition of what holiness is Mm-Hmm. Is to be set apart. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and, and just by virtue of like introducing that topic, there is a, it does set you apart because, you know, your neighbor may be thinking about pursuing joy. They're not thinking about how do I pursue holiness? Or should I, or what does that even mean? Absolutely. We're, we're having to, we're introducing something that is so squarely, like comes from God's character and trying to make a case for why that matters to humans as opposed to, and which is the opposite of joy, which is we inherently know that we're wired to pursue that. And how do we do that in a way that's Christ-centered? It's like the opposite challenge. So it feels very dis. Like it's, it feels like a, you know, something about our faith that we almost want to like whisper because it feels so strange to talk about like, to, to someone who doesn't inherently have an understanding of a holy God. Like if we don't start there with like, there is this holy God, and that's why this is something we're talking about. Mm-Hmm. that, that feels, can feel really off.
Speaker 5 (00:23:50):
Which, which makes me think though, like what is our common ground? Mm-Hmm. that, that it's our like, joyful responsibility then to say what it, what is my common ground with, with other image bearers. Mm-Hmm. . And it's like, well, how as a believer am I not even unintentionally like continuing to kinda maybe reinforce this definition of holiness that's apart from Christ, that's in my own power, in my own doing, in my own checklist. But am I living my life in a way that shows my neediness for something greater than myself? Yeah. Am I living my life with like a humility of like, I got that wrong again and man, good thing that it's not based on just me getting it right every time. You know? Like, am I living a life where people around me would know that about me? Mm-Hmm. . Because I think it is a human thing to want to, not just a Christian thing, but a human thing to want to grow and to experience suffering and to know that this like kind of pursuit of perfection is elusive.
(00:24:48):
Mm-Hmm. . Like, I think that's human. Mm-Hmm. . But so as believers are we living a life and a witness that is one of not holiness, I'm up here set apart on a, you know, a place that's higher than you are. We actually like taking on Christ and living the life of a lonely servant, you know? Mm-Hmm. But one of like admitting I by the grace of God go I, and I need him and my life reflects that neediness that then would cause them to be like, yeah, me too. Even if they source of what they're looking to is different. Mm-Hmm. And then at least puts us on a starting place to talk about holiness. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 7 (00:25:24):
Mm-Hmm. . And, and I think it's really important for us to realize that there are so many other aspects of the Christian life, and if you think about all of the fruit of the spirit, they have some secular counterpoint Yeah. That is appealing to people. And we are just trying to reframe it. Holiness has none of it. Holiness only has negative connotation to the secular world. And so we're already starting at a place where we have to think intentionally about how are we going to talk about this from the very beginning. Mm-Hmm. . And it is just something to keep in mind. I don't have any easy answers for how to do that. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. just a realization that that has to be thought of part of our thought process at least.
Speaker 1 (00:26:06):
But just to kind of comment on what you just said, Annette, and what Kate was saying, like it, they may not think they're per, or I agree that there's not like a, a cultural counterpart Exactly. Like joy to happiness. Mm-Hmm. . But there are people who are pursuing, I wanna be a better person. Yeah. I want to like, there, there are these drives of whether it's perfection or, you know, even approval driven or just like, I'm trying to do the right thing. Like there's this, there can be this human desire for what does it mean to be good and to do Right. And again, that's because of human depravity. That's not a universally experienced thing all the time. But there are some of those things that I think can resonate or at least are somehow related. Yeah. It's just motivated very differently Yeah. And will end up in a very different place Yeah. Than how we would talk about it.
Speaker 6 (00:26:54):
Yeah. I've been trying to wrap my mind around what I'm processing over here, but I, I think this provides such an opportunity for empathy in culture because while we are talking about setting apart and being different, I think what is common to all of us, Kate, you were kind of talking common ground, we're, I think we're all trying to pursue wholeness and fulfillment and, uh, happiness and all of those things. And so I think there's such room, and I think ultimately like the pursuit of holiness results in those things. Like we're all trying to get back to the garden. And I think that's where there's opportunity to empathize with culture, to know, like at a, at a base level, we're all, we all have a void and desire to get back to what was, and some of us are equipped with what the answer to that is and what, and some of us are not. Mm-Hmm. . And we're all looking for it in a certain place. Yeah. That's good. Um, and so I think that's kind of like what level is like, I have a hunger in me that I'm trying to fill and get back to a place of wholeness that sin broke. And so is culture. We're just equipped with different tools.
Speaker 1 (00:28:04):
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. That's good. What are the things from scripture that we need to start pulling together if we're gonna build like a good working definition of what holiness is? Like, we've started to touch on some of those things. Like we know that it ultimately starts with the character of God. Right? But what are some of those things? And this, this is gonna be an ongoing conversation in future episodes where we talk about different aspects of holiness, but what are some of the things that we need to say? This has got to be part of our working understanding of what holiness is. Even if it's going back to, like, Christine, what you said is it, it's not just this list of, of right and wrong kind of legalistic things. If it's not that, then what is it? What, what is the Christian pursuit of holiness? What does that actually mean?
Speaker 4 (00:28:49):
Well, I, I think that it should start with saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Because positionally that is what grants us the type of holiness that we can't attain ourselves. Mm-Hmm. and biblically, I think of probably like Romans four through like eight. Um, because there's such a thorough explanation of how the promise of eternal life being granted to us through faith, and then how that influences how we live our lives now that we have been made wholly positionally and then therefore justified and then glorified. And so I, I think of that, that kind of trajectory shown in the, in the epistle of, of, to the Romans and specifically like that we are, no, we are dead to our sin and now alive in Christ. Mm-Hmm. because whatever pursuit of holiness that we do, which we should, that can only be secondary to the positional holiness we've already been given. Yeah. And so that, that's, that's the, the, the seed bed for our pursuit of holiness practically our everyday life.
Speaker 1 (00:30:05):
Yeah. So maybe, maybe even said more simply like there's a relational aspect of holiness or positional. Yeah. Like we're moved to be separated. Mm-Hmm. . And then there's also this a moral aspect of holiness, which is then what does the fact that we are relationally positionally separated, what does that mean for the actions and postures of our heart? Mm-Hmm. Like moving forward. Mm-Hmm. Those are two kind of, yeah. Two sides of the same holiness coin, if you will. The holiness coin. What else, what, what are the pieces that come to mind from scripture? Like we, we can't forget either this way of understanding holiness 'cause we see it in God or because we see scripture command us to. So like, what are, and again, this is, this is us just talking like what are the things we're gonna have to wrestle with over the next year as we kind of start to pull together this work a be a better, a more holistic definition and pursuit of holiness.
Speaker 5 (00:31:03):
Yeah. Maybe to focus on that relationship piece first that Persia was talking about. If I'm just talking about a starting place with like, how do we make sure we're talking about holiness in light of God's word and how it's defining it? The two texts that came to mind for me, I mean, there's, there's so many, but Psalm 16 is, is an area I've spent a lot of time just meditating on over the last few months. And you know, the very first verse persevere me, God friend you, I take refuge. I say the Lord, I can do no good apart from you. Mm-Hmm. . And so it's this posture of, I I am nothing apart from that relationship. Like he is refuge, he is everything which, you know, falls in line with the, the, the commandment that we see. Like be holy as he is holy. But like, what is your relationship to him?
(00:31:50):
Like, are us hol as he is? Are you on the same sa No, no. I can do no good apart from him. Like he's my refuge. I'm not the refuge, he's my refuge. And so Psalm 16 comes to mind in helping like kind of lay some of that foundation of like, what's my starting point? What's important for me to understand of like my posture towards God and relationship with him as I'm thinking about holiness. And then the, the Philippians three, I referenced this verse earlier, but my goal is to know him. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , my goal is to know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings. And so just this reality that this pursuit of holiness, it, it is a narrow path, but it is the pathway that Christ has walked first Mm-Hmm. . And we are secure in him through the power of his resurrection, but that there's a reality of fellowship through suffering that he's gonna call us to. And holiness is both. Holiness is experiencing a power in the resurrection, and it is experiencing a suffering and a loss this side of heaven that we count as worth it because gaining him is everything. Yeah. And so those, those two things are scriptures that come to mind when I'm thinking about my posture and understanding holiness correctly.
Speaker 1 (00:33:06):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 6 (00:33:06):
. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , I think of Philippians one six which says, and I'm sure of this, that who began a good work in you will bring it to completion of the day of Jesus Christ. And so that just turns the pursuit of holiness into a posture of trust. Um, it becomes about trust at that point for me, which alleviates kind of like the striving that we've talked about that we can still easily get into, um, and the do's and don'ts. And so yes, it is a pursuit, but it is also a trust in, in Christ to do what we can and, and bring us to the end that we can't get to on our own. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:33:42):
Or to bear fruit in us. The fruit of righteousness. I, I think this year, just going through a lot of suffering when you're in it, you just can't, you're like, I, I think I'm trusting you the Lord, I, I, I'm, I'm, that's my, my heart. Are you doing anything in me? I don't know. And, and, but I believe that you will, like, I believe that you will refine when it, when we're speaking of holiness, that he will refine out things that we have to trust him to do it. We can't fully excise these things from our life, but we can trust him. And I, I think of also Romans six, just presenting yourself as an instrument of righteousness or to righteousness instead of the flesh. And that's what I often think of with holiness and, and righteousness, is I'm presenting myself to you God, to, to, I, I want you, I want your ways.
(00:34:37):
I'm not gonna present my body, my flesh myself to the things that are not of you. And over time you using that as I'm presenting myself to you and I'm choosing to reject and to turn away from the things that are not of you, that you will bear the fruit of righteousness in me. It's kind of what Kate said earlier. It's a long game. It's, it's over time. Philippians one, six, that he will complete these things and as he will grow us. But I think sometimes it's hard to see it. Mm-Hmm. in, in the, in the day to day. You know, it's kinda like when a kid shows up at the grandparents' house and they haven't seen 'em for a while, and they're like, oh my gosh, you've grown so much, but you can't see it as a parent in the day to day. I think, I think that's, for me, it's presenting myself over and over as an instrument of righteousness to the Lord rather to my flesh.
Speaker 1 (00:35:26):
I think hearing you talk about, like, you're just using the word refining, it made me think about how it's, it's natural for me to think about holiness as just the separate, but a more complete definition is that that's separate from, and that's to be devoted to Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So we're set apart from sin. Right. God is holy, like in his holiness, he is set apart from anything evil. But the other part of his character is that means he is wholly devoted to everything about his character. He's wholly devoted to everything good. And so we are set apart from something, from evil, from sin. Right. And that's the, like killing the flesh. But we're, this is how, this is how it helps me get back to, well, how does like pursuing the person of Jesus, like in the same way that we would run after him for joy.
(00:36:21):
Like if, if I'm separate from sin and that's part of holiness, well then actually pursuing Jesus. That's, that's my, and to be devoted to something. Mm-Hmm. it's actually to be devoted to someone. And so my pursuit of him is just as much a part of holiness of my personal holiness as my being separate from sin. Mm-Hmm. , which is it like wrapping all that up is makes so much sense why just the, the gospel of self-justification and performance through legalism, whether that's within the church or whether that's the church telling non-believers to act a certain way and behave a certain way. Why that doesn't is, is so faulty and false and incomplete because we're saying be set apart, but we're not giving them the be devoted to, and this be devoted to is this wonderful person named Jesus. And so that actually is where like the joy piece comes, comes up. Right. Like that's actually what makes it all kind of make sense. Yeah. We we leave that part out. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (00:37:21):
We often stop at stop sinning, call you away Yeah. From things. But we don't
Speaker 1 (00:37:25):
Call you to,
Speaker 6 (00:37:26):
We never, never call you to and invite you in. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 7 (00:37:28):
. Yeah. And I honestly think that that is what God was trying to communicate to Israel when he gave them all of the stipulations for how to create the tabernacle and the things that were used in it. Yeah. He was trying to communicate that these things were to be set apart and devoted to in order that his presence could be among them, which is the fullness of joy.
Speaker 1 (00:37:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (00:37:54):
And so the temple, the tabernacle and all those things about holiness is a picture of what you just said. Allison,
Speaker 1 (00:38:02):
Leave it to Annette to always bring us back to the tab
Speaker 6 (00:38:06):
And beautifully connect us back to joy.
Speaker 8 (00:38:09):
It's such a good, I think the tabernacle image, like, I think flesh that out more because I think we missed a space there to address like what holiness actually is, is that it makes it where we cannot without the blood of Jesus.
Speaker 7 (00:38:23):
That's right.
Speaker 8 (00:38:25):
He is too good. He's too perfect. He's too holy. And I, I love that you brought that up. 'cause I think the images in my head when you brought in Bible like is the Old Testament. It's the Mm-Hmm. . I, I think I always wanna know too, like, were they striving when they were just doing the things that God asked them to do, to prepare to be in his presence? Or were they doing it because they were desperate for that? Like, I wonder what the heart posture there was when in order for the presence of God to dwell with them, there were all these like stipulations that we've just forgotten.
Speaker 1 (00:38:56):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Because Jesus fulfilled those. Right. And so it's easy to just dump to, of course I belong in the presence of God. It's like, well, in Christ you do. But there's a lot baked into that understanding of like what he has accomplished for us. Yeah. So that we can actually in faith approach the throne of grace. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (00:39:17):
Which should produce like reverence and humility in us that, that the cost that was paid means we don't have to do any of that. Striving, we get the presence of Christ. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:39:30):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:39:31):
holiness is the pathway to joy.
Speaker 4 (00:39:33):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (00:39:35):
Jesus. Persia. I think this is the perfect segue for you to Oh. Talk to us about your favorite quote.
Speaker 4 (00:39:42):
Yeah. From my, my best friend , she doesn't know it, but , um, uh, Jackie Hill Perry in her book Holier Than Thou, and I'm not, I don't get like a commission from this, I just, it's a good, it's a good book. But in her book, holier than Thou, she has a quote that I think about very regularly. Yeah. In the second chapter, she says, if God is holy, then he can't sin. And if God can't sin, then he can't sin against me. If God can't sin against me, shouldn't that make him the most trustworthy being there is and I, I, I mean, I I would answer yes because it's from the safety of God's goodness in his trustworthiness that we can shoot for what he already is, which is holy and trust that that is the life we're meant to lead. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. 'cause he's, 'cause he's trustworthy.
Speaker 1 (00:40:40):
Well, and we'll talk about this more on an episode where we get into repentance and community, but how often is that like the missing piece of like, we sin you find yourself in a pattern of sin and you feel afraid to go to God. You feel afraid to confess. And there's something about his holiness that is in some ways rightfully scary. Like we should have that, that that is what the fear of the Lord. Like there is a right reverence and all for that, but that is without taking into consideration the person and work of Jesus. And so if that's real and then you have believed in that, then it does mean that at the first temptation or at sin, like that's when we are, should run most quickly into his arms. And yet we find ourselves, I think the, my temptation is to pull away because some part of me knows that he's holy. And that those that my sinful heart can't coexist in his presence. And yet everything you just said is really asking us to believe the opposite, which is like, no, because of Jesus, this is actually the safest place for you. And that's a, that's like paradigm shifting in some big, big, big ways.
Speaker 4 (00:41:53):
Indeed. I think of the pursuit of holiness. I, I, firstly I think of purification because I think of gold and the, and I, I researched this a little bit, but it's a, it's a five step process to purify gold. Would you like to know what the pro the steps are? ? I was going to tell you anyway,
Speaker 1 (00:42:15):
. Yeah. Even if we said no, we
Speaker 4 (00:42:17):
Really wouldn't want to. Well, too bad. But the five stage stages are mining, concentration, extraction, smelting, I dunno. And refining. And when I simplistically thought of purification of gold, I, I mainly thought about that last step refined, like 'cause scripture, like we are refined in the fire like gold. But to know that there's that many phases of it is, is really, really interesting to me. Because, you know, I think of like the order of salvation and, and how it starts with like needing for our hearts to be renewed. And then, you know, God, the Holy Spirit takes us through this, this multi-step process, most of which we don't, we aren't privy to. We just start to notice we are different. We start to be able to, to to sense a need for saving through the person and work of Jesus. We start to hunger for God's word and hunger for holiness and all these things and sense his, his keeping nature of us.
(00:43:21):
But then that last part is the refining. And that's probably the, the one that takes the longest because it's, it's like Kate said, it's a process. And so I think of our purification, which is sanctification being crafted and shaped to look more like Jesus over the course of our whole lives. W so much of our life is that like refining part and, and it feels so painful because what refinement from fire isn't, you know, but, but if it, if it's bringing us a if it's making us into that type of, of of substance, you know, like so pure and shiny and, um, valuable like gold, then it's a, it's a really, really good painful gift. Um, so I think of purification and smelting ting.
Speaker 1 (00:44:20):
Okay. We've talked quite a bit about just the complexity of God being a holy God. He's set apart from what is evil, but he's devoted to himself. That's kind of what we are supposed to be emulating. What is it? But again, we, we have, we've used the word ethereal too a couple of times. Like what does it look like to actually pursue holiness, especially in light of, there's a, there's a difference between I think what we're going for and just kind of a, a a list of rules. So how do we start to wrap our minds around what does the pursuit of holiness actually look like in the life of the believer? Who believes that Jesus has done the, the, the important work for them? And who believes that Jesus is the fulfillment of everything Good? What do we actually do? Where do we go?
Speaker 2 (00:45:06):
Mm-Hmm. , I think a big thing for me that helped me in this and has helped is helping me is to know the voice of the Holy Spirit to know his conviction. And so if I'm walking with the Lord, which is an important, you know, discipline through the word through prayer, being in community with God's people, how does God speak to me and show me sin? Mm-Hmm. . And to know his voice is specific and it is hopeful. Mm-Hmm. . And so specific meaning he points out something very specific about something I've done, something I'm thinking, something that I'm pursuing that's not of him. The opposite of that is, is this general voice. Sometimes we, you know, we might think a voice, a a a thought comes in, I'm a horrible person, or I'm a horrible mother, or whatever. That's not the Holy Spirit. Um, because it's not specific and it's also not hopeful.
(00:46:06):
That's a very condemning voice. So we know that God doesn't condemn his children. He speaks very truthfully and specifically about something. And then he says, and I will help you. Mm-Hmm. I, you confess that to me and I will cleanse you of your sin and I will help you to do different next time. Trust in me. Mm-Hmm. And so that has helped me tremendously to know my holiness is God's is at God's direction. He, he will direct conviction. I don't have to seek it for myself because I am a person growing up in a legalistic mindset where everything I I, it was like false conviction rather than the Lord leading because I had determined the standards, I had determined the rules, the checklist, the whatever. And, and so my standards were the ultimate versus in, in opposition to God's standards. Sometimes they went together, but sometimes not.
(00:47:01):
Yeah. And so I had to learn how to know the Holy Spirit's conviction specific and hopeful. And that's really, really helped me. I don't have to go around looking for all the boogeyman in my life and like, what am I doing wrong? And, but that God will show me and he does consistently. And I know his voice and I know that my responsibility is then to confess and to repent and to obey. Mm-Hmm. . And there's freedom for me in knowing that rather than worrying that I'm getting it wrong. Mm-Hmm. . I, I just think the Lord directs, he directs. So that's good. Mm-Hmm. that's good
Speaker 6 (00:47:36):
For me is growing in how fastly I run to the gospel, both for myself and for other people. I think personally, I can sit in some negative spiral too long before I'm like, I need, I need to run to the gospel. And I think because I think in our pursuit of holiness, because of the beauty of the gospel, God can use our failures and our falling to sin and our repentance in that to contribute to our holiness. Like I can tend to look at holiness and say, the sum of my holiness is how many good things I stack up, um, when really like God can refine me and I don't know, bring me further into holiness also because of the beauty of the gospel, um, in also the places where like, I have not measured up or I haven't stacked up all of the good things and all of the things that I've checked. And so yeah. Just trusting that because of the gospel, he can redeem and use those things too. And so getting to the gospel fast. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:48:39):
That's good.
Speaker 4 (00:48:40):
I agree. I, I think of Philippians again, like you brought up Philippians one, six earlier, Julie, I think of the next chapter over where Paul says, therefore my beloved as you as as you have always obeyed. So now not only is in my absence, but much more in my presence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works within you. So yeah, we, in the pursuit, that's a, that's a active word to, to pursue holiness. We, we gotta get, put some skin in the game of obedience, of repentance, of confession. But we can be so deeply comforted by the fact that we have a helper in the Holy Spirit, in the word in community. And ultimately the deep knowing that it is God working in us. We, we can't work out what he already isn't working up in us. Mm-Hmm. . And that, that's really helpful to me. 'cause I'm like, cha, I'm not doing good. You know, like I can easily feel that way in my, in my own pursuits of holiness that I'm, I'm, I'm not killing it is killing me, but to know that Jesus looks at me. So I don't know, compassionately, charitably. And, and not only has has accomplished it, you know, relationally, positionally, but then also helps me along the, the journey of pursuing it myself. It is really cool to me.
Speaker 2 (00:50:02):
He's patient with us. Yeah. I think we're impatient with ourselves. Yeah. We wanna be further along. And like as you said earlier, I think all of life is refining. Mm-Hmm. , there's always, I mean, there's always something that Lord is bringing up for me that I didn't see before. And, and so his patience to even wait until a certain time, I'm like, I should have known this 20 years ago. I, how did I not see it? Indeed. And he, because he's been patient and slow and he knows it would crush Yeah. Us if we knew everything at
Speaker 7 (00:50:34):
Once. Mm-Hmm. . I think another important aspect of pursuing Hol Holiness is that a lot of it begins in our thinking in our mind. In one Peter chapter one, verses 13 through 15, Peter talks about how that we're to prepare our minds for action to be so reminded and not be conformed to the passions of our former ignorance. And that ties so much into, in Romans 12, when Paul is telling us that he's, he's appealing to us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. And so holiness really is about what are we, what are we meditating on? What are we thinking? And how are we reframing our thoughts in light of the gospel in light of what Jesus has done for us? And then thinking in terms of how that then plays out in our actions. Because after, back in one peter, after Peter tells them that, um, they're not supposed to be, you know, following these former passions that are grounded in this ignorance, he then talks about that we are to be holy in our conduct.
(00:51:48):
Mm-Hmm. , it's our thoughts. Getting them aligned where they are making sure that they are holding our passions captive to the holiness of God. That then allows us to be able to live out that holiness in our conduct. And if we don't, if we miss that connection of the head, heart, and hands, we love talking about the head, heart, and hands. But if we miss that full connection, then we get into legalism, then we get into antinomianism where we don't have to be follow any law. It's all grace. When we get all of those things in the proper order and the proper perspective, then we actually are truly pursuing the God-given spirit fueled holiness that looks like Jesus.
Speaker 4 (00:52:37):
Good. Well, I think you, what you discussed is like being a whole integrated person. Oh yeah. You know, like where our aff, our affections, our what we do, how we feel, and how we think are all in alignment with the Holy Spirit. Hope that would make someone so minded, you know, it would make someone holy. Mm-Hmm. , you know,
Speaker 7 (00:52:56):
Persia's sitting here preaching in my face and I'm loving every minute .
Speaker 4 (00:52:59):
Oh no, you did it first.
Speaker 3 (00:53:03):
There's a really great quote by Piper, John Piper that says, the battle to be holy. The battle for sanctification is a battle fought at the level of what we love, what we cherish and delight in. So as I think about going back to like, holiness can feel so back to ethereal, it can feel like really high and, and out of grasp and hard to understand. And I think that quote helps, helps me really simplify it and look at it and say, okay, holy Spirit, like what am I loving right now? Am I loving my children more than I'm loving you? Am I, am I making them an idol more than you are my king? What am I cherishing and what am I delighting in? I re realign my heart in the right and give me the right perspective. So I, I like also, I, I kind of like the way that he talks about it as a battle. It is a battle. It's a battle between flesh and blood. Right? And so how are we, how are we pursuing holiness in, in the day to day mundane in that, that day to day, um, consistency of life, um, the hard, the highs, the lows, um, how are we battling for that holiness and depending on him? So I think those are helpful questions to think through.
Speaker 1 (00:54:23):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 5 (00:54:24):
Yeah. It's reminding me that this process of holiness, this battle, I like that language too. I think that's really honest. about the pursuit of holiness. Like I, I, each of us I know could go around the story right now and talk about like the, the wounds and the, the bruises and the, the battles fought for our holiness, right. That we've experienced as we follow Jesus. For me, like it's where intimacy is like won and lost. Mm-Hmm. like, and like that battlefield of like, holiness is where I am, like in the trenches with my savior, or I'm pursuing my own, you know, definition of who, who God is. And so, wow. I think about what holiness is, what it's doing in me. It's a long journey. It's battle. But it is like the way of intimacy with my savior. Mm-Hmm. and some of the hardest moments of, in that battle, like Piper was describing, like of saying no to my flesh and yes to God's definition of whatever the thing is have been, the moments when I like, see him most clearly and understand then who he's made me to be most clearly. Yeah. And my affections for him are stir. And it is an upside down kind of thing. You know, everything I just described like doesn't feel it's not linear. Yeah. Yeah. It it, that's where that intimacy is cultivated. And, and, and, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:55:59):
Yeah. Well, for everything that we kind of started out talking about where holiness feels so like, just do this, just perform. It can feel so negative. Like as long as you don't do these things, we don't connect it like you just did with the idea of like, holiness is actually our way to have intimacy with God. Hebrews 1214 says, pursue peace with everyone and holiness without it, no one will see the Lord. Like there's this direct between holiness and us seeing him clearly. Right? Mm-Hmm. and us like experiencing who he is. 'cause we're seeing him rightly. Mm-Hmm. . Um,
Speaker 5 (00:56:32):
And like, I, I think Yeah, totally. You're kind of like putting flesh on more on what I was thinking. Like who understands more than anybody what it's like to like count for the cost. Yeah. And to say like, God, your way, what you're telling me to do, like I'll do Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , you know, Jesus himself like sweat blood and asked his father, is there another way? Mm-Hmm. And his father said no. And Jesus said, okay. Mm-Hmm. . Because your way is better than my way. I'm gonna do what God the father is asking me to do. Mm-Hmm. . And so in my moment, my battle of ho for holiness what intimacy I have with Jesus as my older brother of saying, man, you've been in this very place and you modeled for me what it was to say, God the Father is trustworthy and good. You can trust him, Kate. And there's such intimacy in that that's produced. That's right. I'm not alone in this pursuit of holiness. He sees me, he gets it. You know? So yeah. I see him too in return. Like I see him and understand him to so much more.
Speaker 6 (00:57:40):
Yeah. That's really good. And, and what love is in that, that Jesus went further than we
Speaker 5 (00:57:45):
Ever That's right. Half
Speaker 6 (00:57:47):
Will have to Mm-Hmm. and how much that shows his love for us, which then the pursuit of holiness becomes from a position of love. Mm-Hmm. like, I am pursue this and I'm called in this because I am, I am loved and sought after. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . Um, yeah, because like, what a motivator. I, if I'm motivated towards holiness by anything other than love, then it falls apart pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (00:58:13):
Mm-Hmm. . That's good. Mm-Hmm. . Well, I know we could keep going for a long time and in some ways we're going to Mm-Hmm. because we have several episodes planned after this where we're going to look at some different kind of combinations of things holiness with some other aspect of our faith that each of you guys are gonna lead out on. So I would love to go around the circle and have you each kind of tease the episode that you're gonna be leading. 'cause I think what's, what's baked into those future episodes is some lingering questions, some pieces that we can't really have a full conversation about until we talk about those. Christine, you're gonna be leading our for our next episode. So tell us about
Speaker 2 (00:58:51):
That. Yeah. We're gonna start out talking about repentance and holiness. And so I'm thinking through how do we explore what godly grief is versus worldly grief? How do we deal with maybe some shame over our past un holiness? Um, how do we talking more about the Holy Spirit and his conviction, that kind of thing. So right after me, he is gonna come, Kate.
Speaker 5 (00:59:12):
Yeah. And I'll be talking about holiness and community. So I feel like Christine will really lay the groundwork of, of kind of that personal pursuit of holiness and what that means through repentance. But then what does that mean? Like, live down in the context of community, what does that mean for your pursuit of holiness? Not to just be something that's individual, because guys, it's not . We need one another in this pursuit of holiness. And so discussing things like vulnerability, accountability with others and, and also the other side of like communal lament and celebrating faithfulness too. Like what does it mean for holiness to be lived out in the context of community? And then I'm gonna bounce past it over to Julie for the next episode. Pass,
Speaker 6 (00:59:51):
Bounce past. Um, I'll be episode three and we'll be talking about holiness and freedom. So we'll be kind of asking some questions around what is freedom? What do we tend to think freedom is? And what misconceptions do we have around around freedom versus what is the actual freedom, um, that we have in Christ and that we're called to bounce past to Misty
Speaker 8 (01:00:12):
For the layup .
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Wow.
Speaker 8 (01:00:15):
We just did that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Come on, miss.
Speaker 8 (01:00:19):
Um, at five two change. Yeah. Um, I will be talking about holiness and loss and what our temporary losses that come with the pursuit of holiness. Um, what it feels like to die to your flesh to pursue holiness, the costs and the joys that come with that. Mm-Hmm. . And then Allison will take it from there.
Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Yeah. We've talked about this a little bit, but we're gonna have a conversation about holiness and wholeness. So talking about how we are whole people, right? We're physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. And so what does it mean for holiness to have something to say about each aspects of who we are? And we'll also kind of have a conversation about how spiritual disciplines fit into that, because those need to come into play when we talk about being holy, holy. Oh. And then, you know, , uh, and then Chrissy is gonna take on the next episode. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
So we're gonna be talking about holiness and gifts. We'll be discussing more about what gifts are, how we pri prioritize the development of our character over the development and use of gifts and what that looks like, what people's experience has been in that. And also why gifts were given to us and how we should use them with an outward focus. Um, so we're gonna bring some people on to talk about what that has looked like in their life and how God has used gifts to build up the body. And that will be following up after me.
Speaker 7 (01:01:49):
Yeah. And I'm gonna be, um, doing a double click on something that we've already talked about a lot in this episode. And that's holiness in our witness to our culture. Um, and we'll, I'll have, have some friends on talking about how our holiness can be framed in such a way where it's actually a appealing to a lost world in not only how we live our lives, but how we talk to people about the truths of God. So I think that's a really important topic for us to have. And I'm looking forward for us to maybe kind of living in the tension of what that might look like, but then also trying to find some resolution to move forward in that. And then my girl Persia is gonna close us out with
Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
Holiness and perseverance. Yeah. How do we keep going and why does holiness have anything to do with that? There's so much in a phrase that we hear often in, in our church circles is the already, but the, not the already, but not yet. And that means what promises can we hold to now that we don't have in full right now, but that can spur present endurance and holiness in this long obedience in the same direction. It'll be really, really good. I plan to talk to some really amazing women about how this looks in their life.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
And there's a reason we're ending with that in the series. But it's really the note we wanna end on today as well, which is, this is a battle, right? We've talked about this. There's some hard questions to ask and experience as we think about what our actual holiness is and what it means to pursue holiness. But none of that happens. None of that battle happens without the realization that we do that as people with a lot of hope. And I'm gonna put Misty on the spot 'cause she said something when we weren't recording that I think wraps this up really well. You took us to Revelation. Mm-Hmm. . Why don't you read that scripture for us.
Speaker 8 (01:03:39):
Yeah. I think it just leaves us in a place full of hope to meditate on the words that we are gonna get to sit around the throne and sing together one day. We don't have to sing it here, but we did laugh about doing that . Um, but we, one day when the battle is over, we're promised this assured ending of getting to worship our father around the throne with all of our brothers and sisters and say, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Pretty incredible that of all the things that we could say about him, his holiness is like what we at least know from scripture we'll be saying. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Thank you for that reminder. Well friends, we're gonna wrap up this conversation, but I hope you'll join us for those future episodes that'll be coming out over the course of the next few months. In the meantime, wanna make sure you know about some other opportunities that you can join in with the women's ministry here at the Stone. We've got Women's Workshop coming up really soon on August 10th with Dr. Katie McCoy. We still have some spots left, so if you wanna jump in, we'd love to have you. We are gonna be talking about some really tricky passages from the Old Testament that will tell us a lot about God's heart, about his character, about who he is and in particular what he thinks about women.
(01:05:01):
So these are like really, whether you've ever gotten stuck in Deuteronomy or Leviticus before or maybe you haven't even gone there, these are some passages that can be really discouraging or confusing. And we're gonna tackle 'em head on in a really safe space and I think it's gonna be a great day. So August 10th and registration's open, and then we're gonna be studying judges and Ruth in a nine week Bible study this fall. It's gonna be really fun to have those two books together. Judges is the context for the story of Ruth, which a lot of people are familiar with. So we're gonna do a big flyover of judges and slow down and go deep and slow through Ruth. And I think it's gonna be a great time. So if you don't have plans to be in community around the word of God, would love to have you join us for Bible study.
(01:05:44):
We've got like seven or eight, eight or nine. I can't remember a lot of options at each congregation. So join for Bible study. And then of course, we've got ongoing opportunities at each congregation for connection. So if you're wanting to know how to take a next step relationally, um, would love for you to just reach out to any of the women, um, on staff, any of the women's directors on this team. Um, yeah, again, we love you guys. We hope to see you at some of these things in the future, and we hope you'll join us on the rest of these episodes. And we look forward to a year of as, as a team, as individuals, but in community, in our own personal communities, and with all of you guys listening to, to taking steps in both living in the reality of our holiness and pursuing it more faithfully. So thanks for joining us. We love you guys.