Dr. Katie McCoy recently joined us for the Women's Workshop as we studied Old Testament Laws that specifically relate to women. With her help, we better understood God's value of protection over women and, ultimately, His heart for all His children.
The Women's Cast is the podcast of the Women's Ministry at The Austin Stone. Dr. Katie McCoy recently joined us for the Women's Workshop as we studied Old Testament Laws that specifically relate to women. With her help, we better understood God's value of protection over women and, ultimately, His heart for all His children.
So, in this episode, we're taking a side-step from our series on holiness to recap the workshop and discuss how we can apply what we learned. Alison Mezger is joined by two friends—Kristin Stockfisch from West Congregation and Monica Moser from Downtown Congregation—to hear what they learned, what they're processing, and how it's changing them.
Key texts referenced: Leviticus 12, Leviticus 15:19-24, Numbers 5:10-31, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:13-29, Matthew 9:20-22
Speaker 1 (00:00:05):
Hey friends, Allison Mezger here, and on behalf of the women's team, welcome back to the Women's Cast. As I hope you know, we just kicked off a series all about Holiness, which is our ministry theme for the year. We can't wait to share the rest of those episodes with you. We cover so much, and each episode includes women from each of your congregations. So you will definitely want to keep tuning in, but today we're taking a little sidestep because we have an opportunity to do some very specific work together. A few weeks ago, a lot of you joined us for the Women's Workshop. For you guys, we have an opportunity to not let that day just be about gaining some head knowledge, but figure out together how to continue to wrestle with it and let it change us and let it lead to even more worship.
(00:00:49):
And for those of you listening that couldn't make it, honestly, you get to do the same thing because we are gonna do our best to share what we learned. And you're invited to let it change you right alongside us. I and my two guests got to experience God's goodness directly that Saturday. And as we recount it, you get to either say yes and amen because you saw it too, or you get to say yes and amen because you see it through what we saw. So who is with me in today's conversation? I am thrilled to be joined by Kristen Stock Fish from West and Monica Moser from downtown. And I'm not exaggerating when I say I woke up one morning thinking about this podcast, and the two of you both immediately popped into my head and I went to check our registration list, ready to insist that you sign up if you weren't already, but you both already were. So truly I couldn't be more excited to have you guys here today. How about you both tell the women listing a little bit more about yourself, name, how long you've been at the Stone Community kind of day-to-Day, what's keeping you busy? Kristen, can we start with you? Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:01:50):
Hi everyone. I'm Kristen. Stock Fish. I'm at Wes West, but in 2018 we moved from Santa Barbara to Austin and we had every intention of going to a lot of different churches, but my sister, Katie, who probably all of you know, , was at downtown and invited us to go with her. So the very first weekend we were in Austin, we went to the Austin Stone and we have not looked back since.
Speaker 1 (00:02:15):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (00:02:15):
So for about five years, I've been at West. I am married to Austin, 15 years in October, and we have three kids. Girl, girl, boy. Ryan is 10, Remy is seven, and Rhodes is five. And we are deacons at West, which we really love. And I would say besides kind of the wife mom role that I do most of the time for the four other cool people that live with me, I, I'm a ministry girl at heart. Yeah. So I love serving our church and being involved in different ministries around
Speaker 1 (00:02:49):
Austin. Yeah. Today was the first day of school. It was. You made it through that. Did I? Well, how do I look? You're here and you look great. , , time will tell. And you are gonna jump in and help lead one of our judges and Ruth classes.
Speaker 2 (00:03:06):
I am
Speaker 1 (00:03:06):
The morning class at West. Yes. Wednesday morning. So fun. So
Speaker 2 (00:03:11):
Sign up.
Speaker 1 (00:03:11):
Great team.
Speaker 2 (00:03:12):
Come, come see us, Denise and Meredith and I will be
Speaker 1 (00:03:14):
Teaching. Yeah, great. Thanks for being here. Kristen. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (00:03:17):
Monica. Hey guys. My name's Monica Moser. Kristen's sister Katie is also why I'm at the Austin Stone . Um, I moved here about three and a half years ago. Um, technically from New York, but really from Nashville, um, which is where I met Katie. And, um, she got me connected to Kate Terry and Julie Tuli, who I live with. Um, and also got me connected to my wonderful mc that I've been a part of. So I've been at the Stone for about three years, and I work for a company called Multi-Tracks. We create resources for worship teams and I am on the label artist relations side of things, um, and also do some marketing. Um, I've gotten involved a bit in the worship team at The Stone as well. And yeah, that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 1 (00:04:04):
It's so fun. Yeah. Well, I just love that we could have this conversation with people who don't know each other and it would be fine, but I'm, but I think in particular because of the type of things we have to talk about, it's, uh, it's fun for me and I hope for our listeners that you guys have some context of relationship and, and me with both of you independently. So, um, that's I think why God put both of y'all's names, uh, on my heart that morning. Um, okay, before I turned it over to you two, no pressure. I want to provide a little recap, but here's the deal. It would be crazy, and I really mean it would be crazy for anyone to try to reteach the content from Women's Workshop in a 45 minute podcast. There is a reason we spend all day with a legitimate expert wading through it all. But what I can do, what I'm gonna try to do is give everyone listening the big, big picture and lay out for us what I think are the three main things I, I hope we all took away from that day. Because they're the things that go way beyond the specifics of Saturday. Sound good?
Speaker 4 (00:05:08):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (00:05:09):
So, alright, here it goes. Big picture. Katie McCoy, a truly brilliant theologian, former seminary professor, author, et cetera, wrote her PhD dissertation on some very specific parts of the Old Testament law laws that relate to female biology, infidelity, and sexual assault. For reference, if you guys want to spend some time in these texts that we're talking about, and we'll write these in the show notes we're talking about Leviticus 12, Leviticus 15, 19 through 24. Numbers five 10 through 31, Deuteronomy 21, 10 through 14, and Deuteronomy 22, 13 through 29. These are all really tough passages to interpret and understand how they apply to our lives. But we titled our study of them God's law and the Worth of Women. What Katie was able to show us in these really challenging texts is that when interpreted rightly, they absolutely speak to God's character as a kind and loving father who unequivocally loves values and bestows dignity on women and is committed to justice for them.
(00:06:20):
So I mentioned three things I think were the big takeaways. I can't wait to hear if you guys agree, but here they are. There was paradigm hermeneutics and Jesus. Okay, here's what I mean, paradigm. In order to rightly understand these texts, we have to have a paradigm shift. Katie said, we have to adjust our cultural lenses. She helped us diagnose the cultural lenses we see through and understand some of the realities of the ancient, nearest people to which these laws were given. That paradigm shift changes everything. The second is hermeneutics. We can't just read these passages. We actually have to study them. We have to look at what the original words were or weren't. We have to use some really deep Bible study tools of observation and interpretation in ways that help them, meaning come out beyond our initial cursory reading. Otherwise, it's too unclear.
(00:07:18):
Thankfully, Katie did that deep digging for us and we got to benefit from it and see it modeled. So paradigm hermeneutics and thirdly, Jesus, we have to keep the character of God and more specifically the person of Jesus in view. The laws reveal the heart of the law giver. And as believers, we can operate from a posture of knowing his love, which was perfectly embodied in Jesus who said he came to fulfill the law. So the law has to reflect his goodness too. Okay. You can be honest. How does that recap sit with you guys? We've got paradigm shift, big hermeneutics, I don't know what else to call it, Jesus. Uh, without getting into the pages and pages of notes I know you both took, does that describe the day for you or would you add anything to that list?
Speaker 2 (00:08:07):
Ending with Jesus is always the right call. So
Speaker 1 (00:08:11):
Yeah. Starting or ending
Speaker 2 (00:08:12):
Or both. Yep. Love it. Love the
Speaker 1 (00:08:14):
Recap.
Speaker 3 (00:08:14):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:08:15):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (00:08:15):
We could probably go home.
Speaker 3 (00:08:17):
Okay. ? Yeah, I think, I think we covered it well. And to be honest, I I Google search what is hermeneutics Okay. And say it to Kristen. So that's good. I'm already learning so much. Tell, tell us what is that, um, the way that you interpret or read the Bible.
Speaker 1 (00:08:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:08:30):
Okay. It's such a complicated word for such
Speaker 1 (00:08:32):
A, it's such, yeah. I don't,
Speaker 3 (00:08:33):
Not a simple thing, but I
Speaker 1 (00:08:34):
Can't think of a better simple word, but I do think there maybe should be one. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good clarity. It makes us sound smart, just to sound smart. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's probably what I was doing.
(00:08:43):
. That's good. That it is a very churchy word just to mean. Mm-Hmm. . There there is a little bit of, I'm gonna say an art and a science to reading scripture. There is a science in that God chose to work through written languages and words and grammar and like there are right ways of understanding those things. Um, and I say art really to infer that, um, the spirit also like the spirit was at work in the writing of those words. And he has to be at work as we interpret them. So it's both something that we can be diligent in learning how to do to, to read it well, to make accurate observations. Um, and that's really where it all begins, so that our interpretations don't get weird. And then once your interpretations get weird, the application can get really off the rails. Um, and, and at the end of the day, so much of this just comes back to that. Um, and really part of that is the, the paradigm shift that we will, we will read into scripture something that it's not saying, which at the end of the day is kind of bad hermeneutics on our part. But man, it's so easy to do. Like we all read through
(00:09:51):
The experiences that we've had. Mm-Hmm. like, my life will inform how I see this, and I have to keep kind of checking that. So thanks for making us explain that, Monica.
Speaker 3 (00:09:59):
Yes, of course.
Speaker 1 (00:10:00):
Okay. So now we get to do some wrestling together. Paint for me and for the gals listening a little bit of a picture of what you brought into workshop this year. Like, it's not an isolated training event. Like we're all real people with lives and personal experiences, maybe with history with some of these texts, maybe not. But what did you think or feel about the idea of spending a whole day studying something related to God's value and the worth of women?
Speaker 2 (00:10:26):
I would say that anytime you put the words God and worth and women together, I'll probably be there. . Why? So that, why because is it, it's not said enough maybe. Okay. Okay. In, in my own experience. And I, I know how true it is, but I, I think that I wasn't aware of how true it was an Old Testament Hebrew law.
Speaker 4 (00:10:50):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 2 (00:10:51):
So that was really intriguing to me. And I actually listened to the interview that you did with Katie beforehand. And I think the way that she posed that it would be an apologetic to which, super intriguing because prior to the workshop, I don't think I would've used Old Testament Hebrew law as like a strong apologetic for the Christian faith.
Speaker 5 (00:11:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:11:14):
But now I will.
Speaker 5 (00:11:17):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:11:17):
Well, and honestly, the, I've I've heard her say in a number of settings that part of what I think started her, um, desire to study some of this is that it was so often used actually as an anti apologetic Yes. If that's a thing. Sure. Um, and, and so you're like, wait, but if, if God is who I believe he is based on scripture in Jesus, then there has to be a different story going on here.
Speaker 2 (00:11:44):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:11:44):
So you had a combination of like some curiosity
Speaker 2 (00:11:47):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:11:47):
some, like, I want this to be true, but I need to like Yes. See how it flushes out. Totally.
Speaker 3 (00:11:53):
Yeah. I think it was the same thing. I think I don't always turn to the Old Testament for something like that. And so I was curious about that. And then I think just in general, I've been just more nerdy about the Bible. I, I feel like I got to a point where I was like, I feel like I knew more about the Bible when I was like seven years old in VBS. And it's like, you know, I think I got really just kind of satisfied with my knowledge and now I'm like, I know nothing. And so, especially the Old Testament I'm trying to dive back into and make sense of. So just the Old Testament in general was intriguing to me.
Speaker 1 (00:12:27):
Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I know that there were women there who I think, you know, like all of us had, had probably a range of things coming in, like questions, curiosity, some the topic is like neutral, but they think it'll be encouraging for others. There are probably some skepticism, you know, some ambivalence. Yeah. Maybe even some hurt. And so, yeah, it's interesting to think about how, what I think, you know, we'll unpack a little bit more of like what was talk, how, how it would be, uh, experienced and even like what the application is for women who have different starting places of what they were coming into that day with.
Speaker 4 (00:13:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:13:03):
We described the workshop texts as difficult passages in the Old Testament, specifically related to female biology, infidelity, sexual assault. I know it's a lot. Um, and we suggested that women spend some time in those passages beforehand. Um, we asked them, we asked you guys to consider how these texts made you feel and what you thought they were saying beforehand. You don't have to confess whether or not you did that little homework assignment or not . Um, but does anything stand out to you if you kind of think back to what would you have thought pre the teaching?
Speaker 2 (00:13:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:13:37):
If you spent time in some of those texts.
Speaker 2 (00:13:39):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't mind confessing that. I did not even look at it. Okay, great. Because I was super intimidated. Ah, okay. And I know that the Holy Spirit is my best guide and best teacher. I know that to be true, but still like flesh driven. Kristin was like, I need a pro to hold my hand.
Speaker 5 (00:13:59):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:13:59):
Through these texts.
Speaker 5 (00:14:00):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (00:14:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:14:01):
And me going into it beforehand, I was almost afraid I'd be a little mad at God once.
Speaker 1 (00:14:05):
Like, no, that's, that's honest. Yeah. Once, once she started teaching, were there some that were familiar and do you remember any thoughts of having read them before? I'm like, oh yeah, this is one I found really confusing. I'm glad she's touching on that.
Speaker 2 (00:14:17):
Yes. And I am the kind of person that when I see a confusing text, especially in the Old Testament, I'm like, I still trust you, Lord. I don't understand this at all. We're gonna move on.
Speaker 5 (00:14:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:14:29):
And that is just my Yeah. Makeup. Sure. I know there's others that read that and they're like, they will not sleep. Mm-Hmm. until they can understand that probably like Katie. And I'm so grateful that there's people like that and I'm becoming more and more like that, but Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Monica?
Speaker 3 (00:14:43):
Yeah, same thing. I, I had it like, pulled up on my phone, was like, I'm gonna do this before. And then I was just like, nah. Like, I, I'm just, I know that I'm just gonna confused. It's a safe place. Yes. And like, and so I kind of tried to like retroactively do that. That's great. And like read the passages afterward and like, what I would've thought, and I do think it was kind of a mix of finding things that were like refreshingly respectful toward women, but also being just like generally confused. So
Speaker 1 (00:15:09):
Yeah. You can see where the confusion.
Speaker 3 (00:15:11):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:15:11):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think both of y'all, you're demonstrating a really great point. Number one, I shouldn't put together study guides beforehand. No . Um, but, but truthfully like these, these, these types of verses are just really intimidating.
Speaker 4 (00:15:24):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (00:15:26):
And so either, I mean, I think Kristen, you to some degree, I think that's testimony to like the gift of faith. You have to be able to read them, feel some things about 'em that don't quite resonate, but like just move on in faith. And some people have that. And some, it's gonna become a sticking point where we either then ascribe some things to God's character that it's not ultimately true, but we don't know what else to make of it. Yes. Or we just like move on. Yeah. And I, you know, that's probably what you were doing. Yeah. It's more of just like, I'm not gonna, that's a different time. I don't, this, this is a different time. I'm just gonna, but in, in both of those scenarios, and I've said this before, like we, we do ultimately like miss out
Speaker 2 (00:16:00):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (00:16:00):
Yeah. On knowing. 'cause I think, you know, to, to not bury the lead. Like I walk away from all the workshop teaching. I think like I, there's a part of God's heart that I understand and feel more now.
Speaker 4 (00:16:12):
Mm-Hmm. . Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:16:13):
And if I chose to just not wrestle with those things, maybe there'd be some less like hard co hard questions in the process, but I wouldn't have this view of him now.
Speaker 2 (00:16:23):
Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:16:24):
You know?
Speaker 2 (00:16:25):
Totally. A hundred
Speaker 1 (00:16:25):
Percent. But that's, that's the, there's some cost in doing it for all of us.
Speaker 2 (00:16:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:16:30):
Okay. I think one of the biggest takeaways, um, was everything Katie taught on adjusting our cultural lenses. Which aspect do you think you most needed to hear in order to understand these passages?
Speaker 3 (00:16:41):
Yeah. I think it was two big things. Um, I think it was the, the definition of patriarchy.
Speaker 4 (00:16:46):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:16:46):
And patrism. And then also the honor, shame culture versus the guilty innocent. Um, those were the two big ones that stood out to me. I was even thinking like, if someone, you know, got a hold of just a soundbite of us talking about the patriarchy at church. Yeah. It would be like, why are they saying the patriarchy is good? You know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That word is just so triggering and like scary to even say anything
Speaker 5 (00:17:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:17:12):
Positive about it.
Speaker 5 (00:17:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:17:13):
But the way that she explained it and that like, it's more about authority and not about ownership. Mm-Hmm. , which it can turn into.
Speaker 5 (00:17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:17:21):
And that's the part that's, that's scary and the part that we reject. Um, but just that like the father of the household was responsible for you. Mm-Hmm. . Just like God is responsible for you and represents you.
Speaker 6 (00:17:31):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3 (00:17:32):
I think was really powerful. And then the honor, shame culture versus guilty innocent. I was thinking about a conversation that I'd had with my sister, and I can't even remember who or what we were talking about, but someone that was, was sinning and as a four on the Enneagram, and she's a one, you know, I was like, well, I don't know why we need to like, worry about their sin. Like that's between them and God. And she said something that was like, well, I think we should like collectively grieve sin. And that's always kind of stuck with me and kind of challenged me on that like love and truth scale as I sometimes tend toward love too much. And kind of what clicked with that instance and then with the teaching was that like, yeah, we can grieve it means, doesn't mean judge it, you know, like God is still the ultimate judge, but we should collectively feel that
Speaker 4 (00:18:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:18:23):
As like a church body or as brothers and sisters in Christ. So, and then the last piece was the fact that in both of those contexts, like the redemption of Christ restores both guilt and shame. Yeah. That was super powerful. That was one that I like
Speaker 1 (00:18:36):
Starred. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:18:36):
Because I was like, dang, that's
Speaker 1 (00:18:37):
Good. I think Monica, you're hitting on like, some of the specifics of, in my mind, what was to me probably the most important thing that Katie, that like all of that, the umbrella that all of that came under, which was she wasn't teaching that we were to necessarily elevate the specific culture. Right. That was, that was the context
Speaker 3 (00:18:59):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:18:59):
Of these laws being how God was working through his people.
Speaker 3 (00:19:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:19:04):
And at the same time, we're also not to look at that culture in comparison to ours and say that ours is like the, the better one. It, it's not meant to be a culture war of
Speaker 4 (00:19:13):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (00:19:13):
Like, should we go back to this patriarchal society or this agrarian society? Like there are all these words that we can use to describe what that culture was. And the point isn't, is that better?
Speaker 3 (00:19:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:19:25):
Or is ours somehow more evolved in like a, you know, better for human flourishing kind of way? Mm-Hmm. Like, that's really not the question we're trying to answer. The question is, what was God doing through these laws? Like what did it communicate about his heart? But you have to understand the culture that that was happening within to make sense of them.
Speaker 3 (00:19:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:19:45):
And like you mentioned some of those specifics, like we are very individualistic, they were communal, like they were an honor, shame culture we're right and wrong. They were a patriarchal or patro centric society. Like that's not our, you know, really their primary dynamic. But in all of those things, it's not trying to pit the two cultural pieces against each other, it's just recognizing them so that we can see what God was doing. Yeah. Um, which I think is, is easy to get hung up on. 'cause you can hear this and be like, well, are we talking about should we all be more communal? And it's like, well, may may prob like there may be some things to learn from that, but that's not the, the, the point, the point. We're not trying to apply the culture.
Speaker 3 (00:20:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:20:25):
We're trying to understand the culture so that we don't get mixed up in over applying hours and then therefore misinterpreting God's heart in all
Speaker 3 (00:20:32):
This and dismissing it and
Speaker 1 (00:20:33):
Dismissing it. Like you can't dismiss it because of the culture, nor should we try to just apply the culture right. To our lives. Yeah. Which gets it's them. It's tricky. It's tricky. Mm-Hmm. It's tricky. Yeah. It's messy. Yes. What, what from that kind of,
Speaker 2 (00:20:46):
I kind of, I'm shift. I love were your takeaways, Monica, because my big one was when she identified the difference between our modern day individualism
Speaker 4 (00:20:56):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:20:57):
And the ancient near East collectivism. Mm-Hmm. as far as their culture. Yeah.
(00:21:02):
And what I, I think I took away, I've, I've heard Tim Keller talk before about the Disney princess and Disney heroine idea, meaning that we value as an individualist culture, someone who breaks away from the family Yeah. Goes out on her own, says forget all those values and those ideals. Like, I'm gonna make it. And it just made me think of my life a little bit because I came from a really great nuclear family and for whatever reason my whole life, I always wanted to get away and go away. And I was celebrated for that. And people elevated that decision. And I had a lot of pride probably to be like, look at me. I can make it on my own. And so, like you were saying, Alison, it's not necessarily that collectivism is so much better than individualism. It's just the idea that they are different. And knowing my personal lens of individualism Yeah. And how I come to the Bible, especially the Old Testament, and knowing now that the culture they lived in is so foreign to me because of how steeped I've been in a hyper individualistic culture.
Speaker 5 (00:22:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:22:20):
I think that was so eyeopening for me. Mm-Hmm. Good. And not that's like, oh, we need to go back, but more so because I live in this time, in this culture, how is sin seeped in so that I can identify what's maybe not godly Yeah. About this specific time.
Speaker 1 (00:22:39):
Yeah. Well, and I think even helpful to, she asked some good kind of diagnostic questions to help us view both cultures accurately. Like we see great sin and abuses and just human depravity on display in plenty of Old Testament places that had these cert certain cultural framework going on. And we see horrible sin and depravity and abuses and all that same stuff in our very different culture.
Speaker 5 (00:23:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:23:12):
And so you do have to kind of like reconcile this reality that like, it's, and I think part of one of her points was it's not the, the, the, the sinfulness or godliness of the paradigm is really not what's on the table for debate.
Speaker 4 (00:23:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:23:27):
It, because humans are like, we at in our worst, we are all of that sin and depravity for sure. And yet there are also stories in the Old Testament and in our current day and age that are again, are, are governed by very different cultural, you know, frameworks and standards. Mm-Hmm. where we see really beautiful, um, scenarios playing out. And you're like, well then clearly it's not just the cultural framework that's dictating whether this experience for this person is good or bad.
Speaker 4 (00:23:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:23:57):
But it's hard for us to see that without kind of being
Speaker 4 (00:24:00):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (00:24:00):
You know, God was very much a, a he's a god of a group of people like Israel, it's the church and he's also a god of the individual imago de image of God in every single person. So you're like, is it individualistic or collectivist? Like
Speaker 3 (00:24:14):
Yes. It's both.
Speaker 1 (00:24:15):
It's both. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And so it's, we have to, we have to not try to put our Yeah. Best our, our our current experience as like the way we should be interpreting these things. Yeah. Which is, which is hard. Any other, just big a I wanna get into some application stuff, but I wanna know from each of you, if there were some, if there were any other just aha moments from the day. Like what, especially now that we're a couple weeks out and you're like, not, you know, in the moment you're like, I'm gonna remember everything that this brilliant woman is saying from scripture. And then you get a couple weeks down and you're like, it was awesome. I can only remember one thing. . Yes. So like, what, what for you right now is that aha moment that you, that still is sticking with you?
Speaker 3 (00:24:56):
I think the fact that there's certain things that feel simultaneously like regressive and progressive and I now like can't decide what's what. Like it's all kind of jumbled up in my head,
Speaker 1 (00:25:09):
Like in reading those texts.
Speaker 3 (00:25:10):
Yes. Like we talked about like having PTO for menstruation because in those passages it talked about like, you know, lying down for seven days and not doing anything and not even going to the church because you're ceremoniously unclean.
Speaker 5 (00:25:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:25:23):
And I remember talking to a coworker about like, we, we should have like bonus BTO because we're in pain once a month and that seemed like progressive. And then it's like, but then is it actually what it was always intended to be at the same time? Because there's this weird thing of like, please gimme time off, but also like, I can do it, you know?
Speaker 5 (00:25:45):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:25:45):
Yeah. And that's always that tension. And so yeah. Just kind of that like mix Yeah. Swirling around in my head.
Speaker 1 (00:25:51):
No, that's good. Yeah. I think, um, I really appreciated the, some language that I thought she used that was really helpful was this idea of case law.
Speaker 4 (00:25:59):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (00:25:59):
So like a lot of these laws, um, were meant to be like a stor a description of how the law is to be applied in a certain, in, in a story like a certain way. But that story can't be every scenario of any way that these things are gonna play out. So what was the application was meant to be, let's take the, the way that God is wanting his people to think about the thing from that story and then apply it, apply that way of thinking consistently, and not necessarily that it was not meant to be. That that was the only application of it.
Speaker 3 (00:26:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:26:37):
And so, like, even what you're saying, it made me think that, um, yeah, there were so many parts of her explaining God's heart for women through these laws and it, and it being truly like even more progressive than some things in our culture. Yeah. In terms of like protecting the vulnerable, honoring the, the, the way that he acknowledged, like his familiarity obviously with like how females were made Mm-Hmm. . And that was so honoring. And at the same time to the point of like, how do we apply that now? I'm like, well, modern medicine and things are different now. Yeah. So what was needed to like really honor and protect and care for a woman then even though that heart should be applied now, I'm like, I don't know if we need the days in the same way because like, we have Advil and they didn't exactly know. Like, truly. And that's where it gets that that application part is, is tricky, but I can see how Yeah. There's still some like, residual wrestling with
Speaker 3 (00:27:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:27:31):
What is this?
Speaker 3 (00:27:31):
And that's current, this mean context just getting in my head before I even form a thought. Like it's, yeah. Yeah. That's good.
Speaker 1 (00:27:39):
What about you, Kristen?
Speaker 2 (00:27:40):
I would say one specific thing when it came to understanding, putting my, putting myself in like the shoes or the sandals of a woman of that time
Speaker 5 (00:27:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:27:52):
And knowing marriage looked so different.
Speaker 5 (00:27:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:27:56):
Because there's a lot of passages in the Old Testament about marriage and what that looked like. And I think just understanding that the best way that a woman could be protected financially, economically, her future could be really bright socially even was if she was married. And I, from my individualism lens, would see marriage today as the result of being in love with somebody. I love them. I choose to commit my life to them and that person to me. And so let's get married. And so there have been passages that I have read that's just like, well, what if she didn't wanna marry that guy?
Speaker 3 (00:28:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:28:42):
Or what if like, that guy was a jerk and she had to stay in it? Like, are you kidding? And or any of these scenarios that you read about. And now knowing that it wasn't as a, as a communal and collectivist society, it, a woman never, maybe she thought, but she was not conditioned to think this is about me and my happiness. She, her security and the honor of her community was what was most important. And so that meant that marriage was something that she entered into and stayed hopefully faithfully too. So I, I think that helped me a lot to just say, when I'm reading these passages and there's a lot about childbearing or marriage, and it seems so unfair to me in my lens, knowing now the, the prize of a communal driven society and the protection that God had this whole time and provision for women under the umbrella of marriage was so helpful, so helpful to know.
Speaker 1 (00:29:55):
Yeah. Yeah. It really is a different, like, you do have to like, take off how you are, how we all probably are naturally inclined to read
Speaker 3 (00:30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:30:04):
Those passages
Speaker 3 (00:30:05):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (00:30:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:30:06):
Yeah. 'cause that passage bothered me too. I don't remember which, which one it was, but that she would have to be married to the man that violated her and, um, yeah. That she would have to be in this marriage with someone that she hated or felt unsafe with. But then the collectivist culture, like are they more keeping that man accountable than we even are today? Like Mm-Hmm. , this is a weird example, but I, I recently watched a movie about, uh, Tina Turner and let's see where this goes. Okay. , what if I just started singing,
(00:30:38):
Uh, proud Mary? No, Tina Turner was in a very abusive relationship with Ike Turner. And, uh, this movie really depicted it really viscerally. And at one point I was just like, why are none of her friends calling the police? And then I realized, 'cause this was probably in the eighties, I was like, that's when people were like, well that's, that's their problem. I'm not gonna step in. And thankfully, I feel like in some ways we've kind of returned a little more to a collectivist community of being like, no, I see something wrong and I'm gonna call it out. Yeah. And so that's such a strange, like, modern example, but that, that came up when I was just watching that movie. I was just like,
Speaker 5 (00:31:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:31:16):
Yeah. That, that's something that we could bring in from, from those days.
Speaker 1 (00:31:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:31:20):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (00:31:21):
Yeah. I, I think it's important just to jump in here, and again, I'm, I'm not gonna be able to do the full sessions justice, but I, I I, I wanna make sure that there's no possibility that any woman listening, um, we're we're talking about some of the verses in Deuteronomy 22, verses 23 through 27. And I, I wanna make it very clear that some of the hermeneutical work, um, the good Bible study work that Katie helped us work through was some understandings that I think there, these are, these are verses that can easily be misinterpreted and summarized to essentially equate to God's law says that a woman has to marry her rapist. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4 (00:32:03):
.
Speaker 1 (00:32:04):
And through some like good, you know, word study kind of work and context work was able to show us that that's actually not what's going on in that case law. So I, I just wanna make that very clear. And again, that again, going back to what you said earlier, Kristin, about the apologetic, that's kind of a favorite, you know, thing for progressive theologians, or even, I think Katie said that, uh, there's a pretty prominent, like either Agnos not agnostic, but atheistic, uh, Instagram account that loves to put that verse on there and be like, this is the god of the Christians. Right. And so seeing that that's actually not what's playing out there. That there is a certain accountability, but there's also some culpability with the woman in that specific case law. That does not mean that anytime there is abuse or an attack that there's culpability on the woman. But there, but it was that kind of nuanced work that had to be done to distill the reality that like, that's, that's not what this passage is teaching.
Speaker 3 (00:33:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:33:01):
So,
Speaker 3 (00:33:02):
And was that the passage that violate really means dishonor?
Speaker 1 (00:33:05):
Yes. Okay. Yeah. So there were, there were two passages kind of like paired with each other.
Speaker 3 (00:33:08):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:33:09):
one is this dishonor, and the word reads like violate, you have to be guys, if you wanna go look at this, um, look at the NASB translation. We love the CSB and the ESV around here for a lot of different reasons, but NASB is more word for word literal, and it translates this in a way that Dr. McCoy thinks is more consistent, um, with the Hebrew that it was written in. So check that out. But yeah, there's a difference between the scenario where it actually was rape, in which case the, the next step was not for the woman to marry a rapist. And then there was this dishonoring, which implied some culpability on her part as not rape, but they were going to hold to the communal responsibility of essentially the, the oneness covenant had been started. And so marriage was gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (00:33:57):
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1 (00:33:57):
I did a really not great job of summarizing that thing.
Speaker 3 (00:33:59):
No, I think you did
Speaker 1 (00:34:00):
Okay. A not great job, . Oh, I think you did a good job. Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. You
Speaker 2 (00:34:06):
Can, I didn't wanna summarize it so way. Good. I know. I think it was great.
Speaker 1 (00:34:10):
Okay. Aha. Moments are great. But I'm also wondering if you have any lingering questions or new questions after workshop, or did everything just get tied up in a perfect little bow and you feel totally satisfied with Old Testament paradigm and all these laws?
Speaker 2 (00:34:27):
Yep. Feeling good,
Speaker 1 (00:34:28):
Feeling good,
Speaker 2 (00:34:28):
Feeling like an expert I got. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:34:30):
Yeah. Okay. Ask me anything.
Speaker 2 (00:34:33):
I think that I had, I had so many questions, but, uh, some language that we use a lot around the stone is when you learn, you learn maybe primarily with your head or your heart or your hands. And I know everyone has a little mixture of everything, but probably my last is head. And so after a full day like this
Speaker 4 (00:34:56):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Speaker 2 (00:34:57):
I don't have a lot of questions that are in like, the nitty gritty of what these laws and these words actually mean. I love it and I'm so enlightened by it, but my brain kind of hurts when I leave. And then I just being a hands primarily learner.
Speaker 5 (00:35:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:35:14):
I just want to know what do I do Yeah. With this information.
Speaker 5 (00:35:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:35:19):
And so the questions that I took away aren't necessarily, I need more clarity on these things
Speaker 5 (00:35:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:35:26):
To believe or to be okay with God or with the Bible, I leave thinking, okay, how do I partner with the Holy Spirit to actually change knowing this information? Yeah.
(00:35:39):
And so I think the main thing that I could apply, because it's like it has it's all around us as women, is this idea of God knowing and honoring women's bodies and what they need, and that he knows what we need even more than we often know what we need. And I think that in the midst of all of that learning, I discovered that I'm not great in the monthly rotation of having a cycle to actually see that as something that is worthy of rest. And I know there's the common grace of Advil and other amazing things, , but I think I have become, maybe it's prideful or maybe it's a sense of control or power, but I just, I wanna just plow through that time. Or even like having a baby. I can remember just being like, the goal is to bounce back. Like that is the goal. And the whole time thinking through that this God is the same God. And if he knew and honored and protected women's bodies and the rhythms that he put in place for us, then that means that he still does now.
Speaker 4 (00:37:01):
Mm. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:37:02):
And so the question I'm asking is, do I Yeah. Do I honor my own body in that way? Yeah. Do I know and protect my body in the same way that God might, and am I someone that might encourage other women to do the same thing? And I am, like you were saying, Monica, I don't think that means that we like take seven days off of work, but at the same time, I think that there is probably a level of self-sufficiency in me and in a lot of people that would say, I'm just gonna pretend like this isn't even a part of my life.
Speaker 3 (00:37:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:37:36):
When God might have used and can use and has used that to really humble me, bring me to himself and remind me that I am not a robot and need a lot of rest.
Speaker 1 (00:37:48):
Yeah. That's good. That's good. We'll talk even more about application. Yeah. But Monica, any, what lingering questions did you have? My question was what? You answered the attacker in the field. . Yeah. . Perfect. I, Katie answered it. I didn't
Speaker 3 (00:38:02):
Answer. You did, but I, I, I get that just overall sentiment of like, yeah. I don't need to get into the, like, I, I think I got it, but it's like, yeah, what, what do I do now? So,
Speaker 1 (00:38:11):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (00:38:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:38:12):
Does it change at all how you will approach scripture the next time you read something that you're like, what does that mean, whether it's on this topic or just, you know, something else. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:38:27):
I, so I read Jen Wilkins book, uh, last year, I'm blanking on the title, but minute of the Word Yes. Bible
Speaker 1 (00:38:35):
Study book.
Speaker 3 (00:38:35):
And so I think that was in my head already when I went back and looked at these passages where maybe before I would've read it and then like googled some things and been fine, but like, no, I'm gonna go to the part in my Bible that talks about like, it's 15 pc, it's, you know, this is the time period we we're in. This is like, yeah. Just really getting into the historical context, treating the Bible like it is a history book because it is.
Speaker 5 (00:39:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:39:02):
And so I think this just further, um, confirmed that I need to do that when I dive in Yeah. Even to the New Testament, which sometimes I'm just like, yeah, this feels good , but it's like, no, it's also still history.
Speaker 1 (00:39:13):
Yeah. It's, so, it's, it's really tempting to skip that context work.
Speaker 3 (00:39:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:39:18):
Mm-Hmm. . And then we just end up reading ourselves into the story
Speaker 3 (00:39:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:39:22):
Or, or kind of, or fishing around for what we want it to say.
Speaker 3 (00:39:26):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (00:39:26):
Yeah. You know, which is why it always feels good to, you know, go read a psalm or something. Yeah. Because you don't maybe have to do that quite as much. Do that much work. We we'll miss out.
Speaker 3 (00:39:34):
Well, and what you said earlier, like, I think she says that's one of our main points is that we often go to the Bible to learn about ourselves, but we should go to the Bible learning about God .
Speaker 5 (00:39:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:39:43):
And that's even how I've tried to approach prayer, you know, instead of just being like, Lord, help me with this. I'm tired today. Love you, bye.
Speaker 6 (00:39:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:39:52):
It's like, no, I'm gonna read scripture and remember who you are and start there instead of starting with how I feel.
Speaker 1 (00:39:58):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you brought up the, that Jen Wilkin resource is wonderful. One of the things that I remember from that was the, just the picture that like, if you're reading every day to just to, to try to find that, that, you know, perfect verse that you feel like is gonna meet the need you have for today, number one, you're probably not gonna be able to do that Well. 'cause you kinda have to know what would be coming in your own life. And we're not great future tellers.
Speaker 3 (00:40:22):
Nope.
Speaker 1 (00:40:23):
Um, but you, you read so that you'll be able to draw back on that at some point. Yeah. I'm like, reality is, I have never read Gene Genesis, Leviticus Deuteronomy and thought this is really what, this is what I need today because I'm anxious about this thing. Or like, like that is where I'm gonna go to feel more tethered to the heart of God. . Like I, I, no. Right. I dunno. It's just like the genealogy of Yeah. Abraham, but now Yeah. Like knowing this Mm-Hmm. , there is a sense of, I think the next time I forget about God's care, maybe specifically for me in a moment, um, whether it has something to do with being a woman or not, I'm like, oh, no. But those laws, like he, he does see us. Mm-Hmm. , he does see me. And I'm like, that is such a weird connection I would not have expected to make.
(00:41:15):
No. Um, but it's when you study without some like present daily need right in front of you. But just to know God, like I, I wrote down, I loved that Katie kind of taught on the point and purpose of the law. It was really important. Like what was, what was the law even doing? And it was to demonstrate God's, to distinguish God's people and to drive us to God's salvation. I'm like, man, even just like trying to remember those three things and then wild that, you know, Jesus actually came to fulfill all of that. But like, that tells me so much about God's heart, that it's like worth doing the hard work of getting through those passages if this is where you can end up.
Speaker 2 (00:41:55):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (00:41:55):
With like God's righteousness, his people are distinct and he's driving us to future salvation.
Speaker 3 (00:42:00):
Yeah. That's good.
Speaker 1 (00:42:02):
Okay. So y'all, I think I ended up with, I'll be the one to say I, I have more questions than I started out with, but I, I also feel like contentedness in like, I feel even more confident in the God to whom I'm asking those questions.
Speaker 4 (00:42:18):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (00:42:18):
And I'm okay being in that place. Yes. You know? For sure. So for those you out there who came home with a laundry list of questions, like it's, it's gonna be okay. Yes. When you think about that kind of like big picture takeaway for either of you were, were there ways that your view of God and or your view of yourself, your body being a woman, like how did those, how did they change? Or did they,
Speaker 2 (00:42:42):
I just remember a few different times after explaining the unchanging character of God that is on full display in the Old Testament law, that Katie would say, who wouldn't want this God? Like a few different times. And I was like, what an awesome question. Mm-Hmm. . But I walked away from the workshop that day thinking this God is unlike any other he that has ever been. And I, I wanna be careful because I am not saying that every other he or men are bad and God is good. What I'm saying is that men are human and God is God. Mm.
Speaker 5 (00:43:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:43:28):
And women are human right. And God is God. And so I walked away just with a fresh revelation of how very other God is. Mm. That this, he, even though we use that pronoun, we cannot associate the he's that we know. There's characteristics of course, that he's so graceful to give humans that are like himself, but he is so very different. And I think I, I kind of would read Old Testament verses like this and think in my flesh and misunderstanding that men are the problem and women are the helpless victims. And I think after knowing God more and his heart behind these laws, what I learned is men aren't the problem. Women aren't the problem, sin is the problem.
Speaker 4 (00:44:25):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (00:44:25):
Mm-Hmm. and sin works through very imperfect men and imperfect women to just wreak havoc on everything.
Speaker 5 (00:44:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:44:35):
And God, in his amazingly other nature, decided in his grace to come in and, and implement laws to say, here's how in the midst of the mess, I can still set out to protect and provide for you.
Speaker 4 (00:44:52):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (00:44:53):
Mm-Hmm. . And I think my view of God has been impacted in that way that I see him, like I said, just so very other, he is unlike any other, he, he's unlike any other. She. And that is just like, for me, that is such a good thing.
Speaker 3 (00:45:08):
Yeah. That's good, Kristen. That's so good. I feel like she said something about how, you know, the laws of today for the most equal we've been, we're the most protected. We've been under the law. Just stuff still happen. Yes. Yes. So the problem is the human heart. It's it's sin. And I think you articulated that really well. And I think my view of God, you know, we're talking about in Ecclesiastes, like the fear of God. And I used to be like, why should I be afraid of God? God loves me, you know?
Speaker 1 (00:45:38):
Yeah. Such a strange phrase.
Speaker 3 (00:45:38):
And I brought it up in, in Mc one time, and you know, someone explained that, you know, it's kind of like the ocean, like just the fear of like, wow, this is so big and powerful. And so I think having like the fear of God, but then also attributing this like new gentleness and like even just like the female worth, I've, I've always seen that in the person of Jesus, but
Speaker 2 (00:46:04):
For sure
Speaker 3 (00:46:04):
Maybe not in God as much.
Speaker 2 (00:46:07):
Yeah. Yeah. It was such a takeaway of mine too. And I think I, I kind of misrepresented in my mind the triune God when I would read scripture. Mm-Hmm. because I would think the Old Testament that is mostly God, the Father, new Testament, like Jesus is the hero. And this whole time what I'm learning is that obviously God the Father, God the Son, God the spirit are all over all of scripture.
Speaker 4 (00:46:31):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (00:46:31):
. And I've always seen how Jesus has just spoken worth and honored women because of the stories in the New Testament and in the gospels. But I think this brought so many pieces together of this one God and three persons.
Speaker 1 (00:46:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:46:49):
All of him loves women and honors women.
Speaker 1 (00:46:53):
Yeah. Yeah. There's no cranky father in the Old Testament and kind brotherly Jesus. Exactly. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's easy. It's, it's, it's easy to, it's easy to, to misread those things and see that. Yeah. That's good. We've talked about application a little bit, but obviously that was what a lot of the, the questions that came up during our Q and A were, but I'm curious, Kristen, as a married woman with three kids, given the nature of what we discussed, was there anything that stood out to you about the way God has written your story so far?
Speaker 2 (00:47:24):
Yeah, I would say that being able to see clearly God has always made provisions for the rest and protection of women was like I kind of have talked about was a big one for me. But being a wife and a mom and one who parents alone for some of the week, because of the nature of Austin's job, I think I can tend to fall into the camp of two specific lies that were kind of dispelled because of the workshop. And the first one is that in this season, I don't have time or capacity to truly rest. And maybe there's even some underlying shame in that, that uh, somehow I don't deserve rest even. And there can be an inner narrative in me to just keep going.
Speaker 4 (00:48:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:48:12):
And it's gotten better after about eight years of counseling and therapeutic help. So, and you know, the Holy Spirit coming alongside of me and teaching me so many things, but I think that there's a pride that I possess to think I can be a little stronger and more sufficient than I actually am. And most of the time I'm just tired. I remember a mom saying one time, if you feel tired, that's because you are . And you're like, I just loved that. Yeah. Because I was like, it's so simple.
Speaker 4 (00:48:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:48:46):
But we run from that truth. It's like, I'm not tired, I can keep going.
Speaker 4 (00:48:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:48:49):
And this beautiful turn of events, the Old Testament law taught by Katie McCoy has reminded me that God has offered rest. And I stiff arm him sometimes. Mm. In that good. And instead of striving to enter Yeah. That rest, I would say. And I think the second lie that was dispelled because of this amazing women's workshop is that it is up to me to protect myself and to protect my family.
Speaker 4 (00:49:17):
Mm. And
Speaker 2 (00:49:17):
I think seeing the overarching heart of the, of God for the protection of women and the vulnerable in these passages has reminded me this isn't like a pretty, I have this all figured out yet, but it has reminded me that if he was the God who protected women and the people that are vulnerable, when I feel most vulnerable, he will surely protect me.
Speaker 5 (00:49:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:49:43):
Too. And it might not be what I think that protection looks like, but that is where the trust and faith comes in. That he is the same God that he was then to me. That's good. Now
Speaker 1 (00:49:52):
That's good. Wow. And both of those things like give back to what the paradigm we're bringing. Yes. You know, like you can't accept rest. Like it's clear he wants for his people, even though we see it outlined in the Sabbath, like Jesus talks about it like, yes. We're so quick to ignore it because we've just fully bought into the individual's culture that we're living in. It's like, just keep going. Striving Yes. Doing all that. Yeah. And then, yeah, the God who protected is, is the same God for you now. Yeah. That's good. Well, Monica, as a single working woman, I'm curious if anything stood out to you about how God has written your story so far.
Speaker 3 (00:50:34):
It was funny because at our table, I missed last year's workshop, but the year before was gospel fluency.
Speaker 6 (00:50:41):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (00:50:41):
And I was like, ah, that one was so emotional. Like, I'm so glad this one's just like heady . And then I've just been like crying afterwards. Like it all like hit me like a day or two later.
Speaker 4 (00:50:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:50:50):
And something I wrote down, I think in one of the, like, how does this make you feel? Part was like, it's okay for me to like desire someone being responsible for me, but like, what if God doesn't have that for me? And I think, yeah, maybe I didn't write the individualist collectivist part down because I'm so individualistic and have prided myself on that for so long. And for the most part have been single my whole life. And so it's, it's hard to marry . This is a funny, you know, choice of words. It's funny to marry the reality of we live in a culture that is so individualistic, my generation is getting married less. And the truth that like, that desire is normal to have. And I think I for a long time have just like almost avoided this part of my life, um, and thought that that was obedience . And it's like, that's not, I need to just live in this tension, which is just all of life. It's like, it's not this, it's that it or that it's this middle part that's so impossible, for the rest of your
Speaker 2 (00:52:03):
Life. Life with Jesus.
Speaker 3 (00:52:04):
Yes. In all told, in all aspects of life. And I remember asking probably my LTG, like, I, how am I supposed to be satisfied in my current life? And then also desire that at the same time. And they're like, I don't know. It's impossible. . Yeah. And so I think just obviously this workshop was encouraging in a lot of ways, but yeah, just to be honest, I was kind of like, okay, well why is this like singleness epidemic happening if mm-Hmm. , you wrote in your laws thousands of years ago that we, we all need each other. And what does that look like? And so,
Speaker 1 (00:52:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:52:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52:39):
Well, thank you for, I know that's vulnerable to share, so thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. And I think, I think one of the, when we talked collectively about like, how do we apply all this at the end? Mm-Hmm. , you know, the, the short answer was the, the answer isn't to go and institute all of these laws in our, in our context. 'cause they were meant for that cultural application. Right.
(00:52:59):
But it does, you have to start asking the questions of like, okay, well what does this mean for the church? What does this mean for the peop that's still the people of God to embody the things that this law was meant to communicate? Yeah. You know? And so to some degree, I just as a your friend, I want you to know that like, I, I personally think that sitting in these texts and the takeaways from them make it really clear that the body of Christ is supposed to rally around you in that collectivist way. Yeah. That was happening in the not even nuclear family back then, but more of the like, like extended almost like tribal family. Yeah. Right. And we are, we are still created to need people.
Speaker 4 (00:53:44):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (00:53:44):
And so the structures in place don't look the same as then. And, and you don't need a husband in the same way that it was a provision for women back then. Right. But that doesn't mean you don't need people. Yeah. And, and also it doesn't mean that there's not room for you to still have that desire for connection, intimacy, and all those things. Mm-Hmm. . Um, so it is something that you're right. You have to just like sit in the tension
Speaker 3 (00:54:08):
Of Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:54:08):
But I want you to hear that like, you, you and all of our other single sisters, like you're not meant to do that alone in the church. Yeah. Like the church is meant to rally around you in that and walk alongside you and gosh, we fail like all the time. Mm-Hmm. in that, you know, we do. Yeah. Like we, we, we, we don't necessarily always have a, a consistently strong good theology of singleness. Yeah. That is consistent with our single savior.
Speaker 4 (00:54:35):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (00:54:35):
And single Paul who wrote most of the New Testament. I could, this could be a little soapbox we could talk about later, but you should do that episode. It's, it's, it's good and right for you to be wrestling with that. Yeah. But to hear that it shouldn't have to be alone.
Speaker 3 (00:54:48):
Mm-Hmm. , thank you. And it was so encouraging to hear from Katie who's single as well. Yeah. Um, and talk about she got vulnerable and said that when she looks, you know, ahead, there's a lot of fear and a lot of uncertainty, but then when she looks at eternity backward
Speaker 5 (00:55:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:55:09):
She feels like peace.
Speaker 5 (00:55:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:55:11):
And I think she said something about like, I'd rather live on purpose than get everything that I desire.
Speaker 5 (00:55:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:55:17):
And that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. That was really encouraging to me.
Speaker 1 (00:55:21):
Yeah. Well, me too.
Speaker 3 (00:55:22):
Yeah. Yeah. To anyone.
Speaker 1 (00:55:24):
Like for all Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:55:24):
Totally. All that. Totally. Because d you know, desires come when you're married as well. You're not just, y'all aren't just like content all the time. . Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:55:33):
It's a whole different episode.
Speaker 3 (00:55:34):
Exactly. Episode part two. Part two.
Speaker 1 (00:55:37):
That's right. Um, okay. We're, we're getting close there guys. I just have a few more questions. Talked about the, the personal application. I'm curious if, as you think about just other relationships you have, whether it's with single friend, married, friend, neighbor, mom, sister, um, are there parts of this that you're gonna take away that you think people in your life need? And what does that mean for you?
Speaker 3 (00:56:04):
I, I think it goes back to the individualist, collectivist, uh, tension. Because I, I've always prided myself. I, I've always heard my whole life, like, you're the same person around everybody, you know? And, and when you hear a truth, it becomes like part of you and you're like, yeah, I am. But I think I heard that truth too much and then was like, oh yeah, I'm never influenced by the people that I surround myself with. I'm always me. And I learned that that's not true. And you need people that are holding you accountable and are setting good examples and, and living in a way that challenges you and invites you into just God's goodness. And so I think, yeah, I think it would encourage me to, in a healthy way, I don't know, just keep friends more accountable to how they're living. It's kind of that, you know, grieving sin thing versus like judging it. I think sometimes it's, you know, that's, you do you, I'll do me, we're fine. But again, it's that messy middle of like, no, if it's on your heart to, I dunno, call someone out or even just check on someone, then that's there for a reason. And you can do that in a loving way. I think we've gotten like afraid to do that.
Speaker 4 (00:57:23):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 3 (00:57:24):
And so I think that's part of the, what is it? Ancient new near East society that I would like to bring back. Bring it back.
Speaker 2 (00:57:32):
Sounded so smart when you said thank you so much.
(00:57:37):
I would say just based off of my daily life and where my community happens, it's at church and then it's at home. And so home sometimes can mean neighbors, and we don't have any believing neighbors that live around us. And so when I read this question initially, I thought about the morning of the workshop, I went out to my driveway and my neighbor came out and she said, what are you doing today, ? And I said, I'm going to an all day women's event at my church. And she was, she looked at you like a crazy person. Yeah. She thinks I am so weird. All about the patriarchy. . I didn't say that part,
(00:58:11):
But I have been praying that she follows up with me about that. Mm-Hmm. Because I would love to say to her, like, when she says, oh yeah, you were at that church thing all day. , how did that go? I would love to say we dug into what are probably what I would've thought, and many people would've thought are the most misogynistic texts in all of the Bible. And I learned that actually, I've been misinterpreting them this whole time. Mm. And it's like, how, how can someone walk away from that conversation gonna say, how do you not follow that up with a question? Question, have a good day. Well, that's great. Good for you. Bye. Yeah. You know, the, I don't understand how you wouldn't be like, what? Yeah. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 5 (00:58:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:58:58):
And so I think just in my context and my heart for just the person that doesn't believe yet, I'm always like, how do I use what I'm actually living in, in my life to talk more about Jesus in a way that is both at their level, but like draws them in a little bit. Yeah. And that is an apologetic. Yeah. It's so cool.
Speaker 1 (00:59:21):
I I, yeah. I, I for me, I think the thing that kept standing out to me was I don't want, I, I think I, I had to like wrestle or I had to recognize that I probably put these verses, and I'm sure there are others in a category that if I'm honest, I would've felt like I had to defend God through
Speaker 3 (00:59:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:59:47):
Apologize for the way this was communicated.
Speaker 3 (00:59:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:59:51):
Um, like I wouldn't go so far as to say it should be redacted, but I sure hope no one asked me about it.
Speaker 6 (00:59:56):
Mm-Hmm. who
Speaker 1 (00:59:57):
Was searching or curious. And while that is certainly an understandable posture, like I want to be able to engage in conversations with people who don't know Jesus, who are asking questions from a posture of I'm confident in his character. And there may be things that I'm still uncertain of. Like, there's still mystery, there's still mystery in a lot of these. Like again, I, I still walked away with, with questions, right? Mm-Hmm. . But that mystery doesn't have to mean that I am fearful and think that he needs me to go to bat for
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Him. Yes. And sometimes I think the mystery and being able to say to a nonbeliever, I don't know, I don't know, is the most compelling. Sure. Apologetic. 'cause it's just like, oh, I thought Christians like just pretended to know everything.
Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Right. Right, right.
Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
And they don't,
Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
And to be able to say, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
But also, here's what I do know from these things. And it actually be something like you just said, that screams his, like the goodness of his character and the value that he sees in all of his people.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
I'm excited to be able to add that to the list of things that I would, would welcome a conversation in as opposed to one I'm hoping to avoid. Yeah. That feels, feels really, that feels encouraging. Yes. I'm sure I'll stumble through it still. Sure. But it'll be way better than
Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Before. That's also endearing. A little stumbling through.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Yeah. We've talked a lot about paradigm. We've talked a lot about hermeneutics. We've talked some about Jesus. We ended the workshop with some New Testament readings about Jesus. One of them was Matthew nine 20 through 22, which says, just then a woman who had suffered from bleeding for 12 years approached from behind and touched the end of his robe for, she said to herself, if I can just touch his robe, I'll be made. Well, Jesus turned and saw her have courage, daughter. He said, your faith has saved you. And the woman was made well from that moment, how does this story hit you? Now,
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
I'm gonna go off a little bit, I feel like on this off, off, because this is one of my favorite stories in all the Bible.
Speaker 4 (01:02:02):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
It was before. So now I'm like, oh my gosh, it's technicolor now.
Speaker 4 (01:02:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Because of what we learned. So first of all, I think about this woman and how she knew her Hebrew law because she's like, I don't wanna touch him like him because I know what means for him.
Speaker 5 (01:02:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
That he won't be able to enter places of worship Yeah. Until he cleanses himself. But I the faith to know I have to do something.
Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
And so I'm gonna touch the outer part of his garment. And in, I think in the Luke version of this story, what's so fascinating is that Jesus stops and says, who touched me? Who touched me? Yeah. And it's like, whoa. Like she didn't even mean to, and I think of her just being so terrified. I think it says that she was trembling when she came before him. And I'm like, now I understand why she's so scared upon everything else.
Speaker 4 (01:02:56):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
. She just got healed. Everyone's watching her. It's a big crowd. But on top of that, she's like, I didn't even mean to touch him. Like, I don't think I did. I didn't mean to like make him unclean. Ceremonially. So ceremonially. I
Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Know. Ceremonially or ceremoniously? Ceremonially.
Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Ceremonially. There we go. Okay. So I didn't mean to make him unclean, but I think what's so cool about that is that we see in the, at least going to the workshop, I learned a lot about Old Testament law when a woman is bleeding and how she stays away from the place of worship for that amount of time.
Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
.
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
And I think if I was a Hebrew woman at that time, I would've been like, what a grace. I don't really wanna see anyone. Anyway. Yeah. I'm gonna be over here and I'll just see you in a few days. But the idea that this woman had been marginalized and unable to be a part of corporate worship or any kind of spiritual gathering
Speaker 5 (01:03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
With her people for 12 years straight. Not to mention the shame that she must have carried because she was unclean over and over and over again. Mm-Hmm. . I just, I don't know if we can really imagine that, but I think in light of what we learned in Matthew five 17, that Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. I just get all the feels from the story because that means that the law grew legs and had eyes of compassion
Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
And move towards women and declared healing and declared belonging over her, using the words that he did. And I think when he speaks the word daughter, it's so meaningful to me because not only does I do, I think that that infers belonging, but I think it also, I think we can assume that that means that it infers resemblance. Like there's something in you that I see myself in you. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
.
Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
And what I love about that, and I hope I'm not reading too much into this, but when you asked this question, Allison, I was like, deep dive. 'cause I love this story so much is that even though there are probably thousands of ways that he probably sees himself in this woman because it's his daughter and the imago de all these great things that we know, I think it's a word picture of Jesus fulfilling the law, where before blood coming from any human was linked with un cleanliness. Mm-Hmm. , this woman's bleeding mixed with her faith actually led to being ultimately cleansed.
Speaker 5 (01:05:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
And in the same way the blood and sacrifice of Jesus as gruesome and horrible as it was led to the cleanliness and salvation of the whole world.
Speaker 5 (01:05:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
And so he is just the good and better everything.
Speaker 5 (01:05:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
And preach. I think the law was always pointing straight at him.
Speaker 5 (01:06:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
And that I didn't see before.
Speaker 5 (01:06:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
That it's like all of this, the whole time, it's just one big sign
Speaker 5 (01:06:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
That is pointing at him. And the fulfillment of that being a, like a perfect human and a divine God at the same time is like too good to even handle sometimes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Yeah. The, maybe just a little context for the gals that weren't there, there are these categories in the law, and so there's moral law Mm-Hmm. , like, don't kill your, don't kill people. And then there's ritual laws
Speaker 4 (01:06:33):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Um, that were really just governed like the religious practices. And they still pointed to things about God, but they, they weren't moral in nature. They were ritual. And so part of that is like designating things as clean and unclean or common and holy. Yep. And those, those aren't moral so distinctions, they were very practical distinctions. Like, this is clean, this is not, that's not saying you did anything wrong, but it means that it has a place until it is cleansed. Yes. And then it can come back into another place.
Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
Yep. Totally.
Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
And so part of what you're like in awe of Mm-Hmm. Is that she approached Jesus Mm-Hmm. In a state of UNC cleanliness, which is a ritual un cleanliness. Right. Wanting that to be
Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Healed Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Or changed.
Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Um, believing that he could provide that cleansing essentially in a, in a ritualistic way.
Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
And he, like one ups it for sure and says, your sins are forgiven. Yes. Like you, you are forgiven and healed, ultimately
Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Clean. Mm-Hmm. Ultimately clean, forever clean.
Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
And he, he fixes the physical ailment, but also says, your faith has saved you.
Speaker 4 (01:07:36):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
So he's like, you came to me for ritual cleansing and I'm giving you moral salvation book. Holistic cleansing. Holistic cleansing. Yes. Yeah. I mean it, I I, I didn't, I wouldn't have been able to attribute all that to that story. No. Ahead of time. I just got chill bumps.
Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
Me too. Like my legs,
Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
We can't preach like she just did,
Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
But long ago, . I know. I was gonna say I can't follow that.
Speaker 4 (01:07:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
I, I will just add like, I don't know who said this, but someone said that if you only focus on the New Testament, it's like watching an amazing movie and watching the last 15 minutes and not watching all the stuff before.
Speaker 5 (01:08:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
And wow. Sorry, I'm gonna reference another movie. But great. I, I watched The Color Purple last night 'cause I had somehow missed it. I see. Every movie, I don't know what I was doing , and oh my gosh, it's so devastating. But the ending is such a payoff and I was just weeping and it's, yeah. It's like I hadn't watched that whole movie and I just watched that last scene. It would still be powerful, but I wouldn't have like known all the steps that led there.
Speaker 5 (01:08:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
And so I'm so glad that y'all ended with this passage because Yeah. We see it so much more rich now.
Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
Yeah. Yeah.
(01:08:45):
So good. Well, again, for a gal listening, we rattled off at the beginning all of those, the scriptures in the Old Testament that we worked through, and we just read Matthew nine 20 through 22. We also spent just a little bit of time in the readings of John eight, three through 11 and John one, one through five and 14 through 17. So, you know, if you, if you go back and, and read any of the, the law pieces that we've been talking about, I encourage you to connect those dots and read some of those passages about Jesus himself.
Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
Mm-Hmm. .
Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
And ask yourself the question of what does it mean that he's the perfect fulfillment
Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Of these things that we've been Yeah. That we've been talking about. It really is. It's pretty mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
And if you got a really cute sweatshirt or the mug Yes. So I was just loving reading all of Matthew five. Yeah. That says you have heard it said Yeah. But I say to you, yeah, yeah. And
Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Yeah, we put
Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
That, we put that on the mug and, uh,
Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
Plugged that women's merch and that
Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
That's right. We're wearing it. But it really is. But it's great. Its, it's a reminder that like he said that over and over and over again in the New Testament to, and it was usually in the context of like, you know, you've heard it said don't murder. I'm gonna like kind of one up it and say like, the heart of that is like, don't hate. Yes. Right. And so we see it in the him he, him calling us to something even higher to really the heart of the law. Mm-Hmm. . But it's also true in the sense of like his fulfillment of it. Like he is the perfection of all those
Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Things. He's like the ultimate holy one upper and I am so here for it. . That's
Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
Great. Well guys, I cannot thank you enough. Um, thank you for vulnerability in sharing. What I think for all of us is something that's in process. The love of God is very much on display in the laws Jesus came to fulfill and in the way he interacted with women and in the way he cares for us now. I hope you'll keep listening. Friends, we've got all of the Holiness episodes coming your way. Soon we'll kick things off with Christine Hoover and some wonderful women from Northwest processing confession and repentance. You won't want to miss it. And if you haven't signed up to study judges and Ruth with us, um, well you need to do it. Kristen will be there, um, at West and yeah. You've heard us talk about just kind of some aha moments in the Old Testament. And I think the setting, the combination of judges and Ruth, it's just, it's, it's ripe for more of those opportunities. So everything you need to know is on the website will start the week of September 9th. So don't wait to sign up. Um, your church loves you. Bye for now.